APA rating question

[Celophanewrap]

I lose many games in 9 ball on the 8 or 9, but I still play up to my skill level. Running 7 or 8 balls to miss the 8 or 9 will still give the worse player a win, but that won't mean they are a good player. Shooting in a 9 in the jaws because you just barely missed it is not much skill. I would never want to see a player go up in skill because they beat me 3-0 when those 3 losses were because I left them 1-2-3 ball run outs.

I've lost matches when I ran 90% of the balls in the match but they only needed 3 games to my 7. I'd lose 3-5 or something but they would have shot 3-4-5 balls the whole 8 games we played. Yes I lost, but it's not because of the other players skill that they should not be a 3. They shot like a 3, the issue in the loss is that I also shot like a 3 when I was a 7 LOL.

The game is multi faceted. As a 7 playing a 3 not only should you be able to out shoot a 3, but your game should be "smarter"
and you should be invested in the game, that is if you are always trying to win. Sometimes as a senior S/L player we tend to
overlook some of the lower level players and it can come bake to bite us.

Another thing about being a senior S/L player is that you have developed a consistency. If you jawed an 8 ball and the 3 had a 2 or 3
ball out I have to ask how you got to that point in the first place.

A 3 is never going to be consistently at the same level as a 7, but if he beat you then he deserved to win. If you really played like a 3,
maybe you're a tad over-ranked to be a 7. Sometimes we get beat because the 3 had a good night, or we played stupid and they played smart,
we didn't concentrate and they made every shot count, or whatever.

If we lose to a 3 and they move up then good for them, but one win over a senior S/L player won't move them up. Some of you may disagree
but my thought is that an advance in S/L is earned, wins contribute to that advance.

Let them have the win and don't take it away by saying you played bad, or you gave it away, they beat you because they were the better player that time.

Besides, as a Senior S/L player, if I face that same person in a match that means something I'd much rather have them over confident and playing as a
higher rated player, that can only be good for me.

 

[lorider]

As.much as.i defend the apa.on.here I also realize it is not perfect

I also.know there are good lo's out there and bad ones too.

Several years ago I got pretty upset at my lo for a team mate getting raised during a big money tournament that basically knocked our loaded team out. We had a 2 that was raised to a 3 after winning 2-2 vs a 6. She made the 8 on the break once and her opponent scratched on the 8. Neither rack was won due to her level of play but never the less she was raised. I was livid and threatened to quit apa.my lo explained to me that she had been on the bubble of being raised due to her previous match and he could do nothing about it. Fortunately my team mates talked me out of quiting and here years layer I have come to understand my lo is not out to get me or my team.

I probably should not type what I am going to say but ita a delimna I am faced with .

A few years ago my ex girlfriend " who still plays on my team " was playing in a board qualifier for regionals. She was a 2. I had already qualified and she was trying to qualify also in order to go with me. She made it to the finals and her opponent who overheard her mentioning she was wanting to go with me dumped the match in order for her to go as he had been several times and knew a few more qualifiers were coming up that he might could win.

She was moved up to a 3 as a result and is now locked in as a 3 being the lowest she can ever be in 9 ball. She is a terrible 3..i mean terrible. She never won a match this weekend in tri cups and even Los to a 2 by a score od 19-1 . Kudos to my team foe "almost " overcoming that deficit yesterday where it came down to the last match and both players needing only one ball to win. Their player got that one ball.

Believe me when I say I have talked to my lo about her handicap. I kept getting the same response. She is locked in because of playing in a high level tournament as a 3. Which she went 2 and out.

Reluctantly I resorted to telling him about the dump in order for her to go. Imagine my surprise when he told me he was aware of it because the person who dumped had informed him of such. He replied there was nothing he could do about it because of the rules in place and he was not going to break the rules in order to manually drop her.

I have to respect that and realize he is not going to show favoritism to any one on his league.

My only recourse is to.try to improve her level of play which has been impossible to date. She just dont listen !

 

[hang-the-9]

The game is multi faceted. As a 7 playing a 3 not only should you be able to out shoot a 3, but your game should be "smarter"
and you should be invested in the game, that is if you are always trying to win. Sometimes as a senior S/L player we tend to
overlook some of the lower level players and it can come bake to bite us.

Another thing about being a senior S/L player is that you have developed a consistency. If you jawed an 8 ball and the 3 had a 2 or 3
ball out I have to ask how you got to that point in the first place.

A 3 is never going to be consistently at the same level as a 7, but if he beat you then he deserved to win. If you really played like a 3,
maybe you're a tad over-ranked to be a 7. Sometimes we get beat because the 3 had a good night, or we played stupid and they played smart,
we didn't concentrate and they made every shot count, or whatever.

If we lose to a 3 and they move up then good for them, but one win over a senior S/L player won't move them up. Some of you may disagree
but my thought is that an advance in S/L is earned, wins contribute to that advance.

Let them have the win and don't take it away by saying you played bad, or you gave it away, they beat you because they were the better player that time.

Besides, as a Senior S/L player, if I face that same person in a match that means something I'd much rather have them over confident and playing as a
higher rated player, that can only be good for me.

This is not the APA or any league, it's a handicapped tournament I play in, I was just making a point that you can lose to a lower level player where you can still play well so you don't go down in skill, and the lower level player can beat you without going up.

 

[hang-the-9]

-- snip --
My only recourse is to.try to improve her level of play which has been impossible to date. She just dont listen !

As I was reading your post, my reply was going to be, well I guess you have to raise her skill level with practice and lessons :wink: Then I got to the last line... LOL

BTW, I think that player that let her win did a good thing, even if it caused you some headaches, but if she won for real, she still would have been raised correct? I've let a newer or weaker player win to get an accomplishment several times and never regretted it even if I lost money in the process. I remember clearly abut 6 years ago in a in-house league finals I was playing a much younger kid, we went hill-hill and I was running out the final rack, and "missed" the 8. I was practicing the next day and ran out 2 racks of 9 ball, he said "how the hell did I beat you when you can do that?", I said I messed up the shots to get you to hill hill in the first place, and then I got harder position on the 8 than I could have had and missed the shot. I still have the plaque with all the winners names on it from that room at my house, my name is not on those. But I have several 2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishes :wink:

 

[Celophanewrap]

As.much as.i defend the apa.on.here I also realize it is not perfect

I also.know there are good lo's out there and bad ones too.

Several years ago I got pretty upset at my lo for a team mate getting raised during a big money tournament that basically knocked our loaded team out. We had a 2 that was raised to a 3 after winning 2-2 vs a 6. She made the 8 on the break once and her opponent scratched on the 8. Neither rack was won due to her level of play but never the less she was raised. I was livid and threatened to quit apa.my lo explained to me that she had been on the bubble of being raised due to her previous match and he could do nothing about it. Fortunately my team mates talked me out of quiting and here years layer I have come to understand my lo is not out to get me or my team.

I probably should not type what I am going to say but ita a delimna I am faced with .

A few years ago my ex girlfriend " who still plays on my team " was playing in a board qualifier for regionals. She was a 2. I had already qualified and she was trying to qualify also in order to go with me. She made it to the finals and her opponent who overheard her mentioning she was wanting to go with me dumped the match in order for her to go as he had been several times and knew a few more qualifiers were coming up that he might could win.

She was moved up to a 3 as a result and is now locked in as a 3 being the lowest she can ever be in 9 ball. She is a terrible 3..i mean terrible. She never won a match this weekend in tri cups and even Los to a 2 by a score od 19-1 . Kudos to my team foe "almost " overcoming that deficit yesterday where it came down to the last match and both players needing only one ball to win. Their player got that one ball.

Believe me when I say I have talked to my lo about her handicap. I kept getting the same response. She is locked in because of playing in a high level tournament as a 3. Which she went 2 and out.

Reluctantly I resorted to telling him about the dump in order for her to go. Imagine my surprise when he told me he was aware of it because the person who dumped had informed him of such. He replied there was nothing he could do about it because of the rules in place and he was not going to break the rules in order to manually drop her.

I have to respect that and realize he is not going to show favoritism to any one on his league.

My only recourse is to.try to improve her level of play which has been impossible to date. She just dont listen !

Hey lo, maybe you're not the best person to be trying to help her. even if you all get along and are good friends and all that, still you have a history.
The girlfriend / boyfriend or husband / wife combos on my team are not the best to offer advice to each other during a match. Maybe it's the familiarity
or something, but them coaching each other rarely ever works out well. If I go out to coach, the spouse or partner can stop me and suggest something
or give me some insight as to their mood or sobriety, state of mind but they don't get any closer than that.

As far as her being a 3, a while back we had a player that started in Las Vegas as a 4, he played a couple matches way over his head and he was raised to a 5.
Normally this guy was a bad 4 and there was no way he was a 5. We sent an appeal letter with his history and a couple of "witness" statements to our LO,
and they were forwarded on. A couple of months later his S/L was brought back to a 4.

I would think the best thing to do would be to try and raise her level of play. She was in the final of a singles board, she must have been doing something right and she's
likely closer to going up than you might think, she may just need a little help from someone else

 

[Celophanewrap]

This is not the APA or any league, it's a handicapped tournament I play in, I was just making a point that you can lose to a lower level player where you can still play well so you don't go down in skill, and the lower level player can beat you without going up.

Yes you are absolutely right. I think it's important that you look at a persons history and
not just the most recent match or two

 

[Maniac]

If we lose to a 3 and they move up then good for them, but one win over a senior S/L player won't move them up. Some of you may disagree
but my thought is that an advance in S/L is earned, wins contribute to that advance.

Here's a true story and I know that it is true because it involved my wife and I was there.

She was a SL3 in 9-ball. She probably had won around a third of her total matches with semi-high inning count. In other words she was a 3 and shot like one. She almost always used and needed her allotted time outs as her thought process was akin to her skill level..

One night she was put up against a SL5 (a man). She won the lag and broke and made a ball. Holy crap and I mean HOLY CRAP did the stars align and she proceeded to run the rack out (with a helpful time out once when she got out-of-line). Needless to say her opponent and his teammates were none too happy with her skill level and immediately started with the usual "she's no skill level 3" chirping.

She went on to win the match in a less than spectacular fashion. In other words, she finished the rest of the match shooting in a way that represented her true skill level. She has never come close to a break-and-run in either 9 or 8-ball since that night, and probably never will.

She was raised to a SL4 the next week and won very few (if any) 9-ball matches until she was finally moved back to a SL3 (this week).

Go figure. I mean, what about her best 10 matches from the previous 20? There is no way her numbers should have moved her up because she had one good game in all the many she had shot. I suspect there may have been some crying to the LO and the LO raised her up.

So, that said, how is the scoring system working for my wife??? Not very well. Not very well at all.

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

The girlfriend / boyfriend or husband / wife combos on my team are not the best to offer advice to each other during a match. Maybe it's the familiarity
or something, but them coaching each other rarely ever works out well.

As this may be true in some cases, it is definitely no true in all cases.

My wife and I have a home table and she practices with me fairly regular. I know how she shoots and what she is capable and NOT capable of. I know her strengths and weaknesses. She trusts me when I tell her to go for a shot (and how to do it according to her strengths), or when to play a safety. If you asked her, she would tell you that she had rather have me than anyone else helping her during her time outs.

I'd be willing to bet that we're not the only couple like this. I would bet there are many more, but is no way to get statistics on such a thing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

Maniac

 

[Celophanewrap]

As this may be true in some cases, it is definitely no true in all cases.

My wife and I have a home table and she practices with me fairly regular. I know how she shoots and what she is capable and NOT capable of. I know her strengths and weaknesses. She trusts me when I tell her to go for a shot (and how to do it according to her strengths), or when to play a safety. If you asked her, she would tell you that she had rather have me than anyone else helping her during her time outs.

I'd be willing to bet that we're not the only couple like this. I would bet there are many more, but is no way to get statistics on such a thing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

Maniac

No, no disagreement at all. People are different and if Lorider is doing the coaching it
doesn't seem to be working out so well. In your case she wouldn't have it any other
way.

I think the difference is that you all practice together and play together quite a
bit. Most league playing couples probably play once or twice a week and not together
all that often, though some do. It works for some people, not so much for others.

I never meant to say it's like that for everyone

 

[lorider]

No, no disagreement at all. People are different and if Lorider is doing the coaching it
doesn't seem to be working out so well. In your case she wouldn't have it any other
way.

I think the difference is that you all practice together and play together quite a
bit. Most league playing couples probably play once or twice a week and not together
all that often, though some do. It works for some people, not so much for others.

I never meant to say it's like that for everyone

Some couples jell together on teams and some dont. . There are several couples at league who do not pls on the same team but the majority do.

My ex girlfriend wants to play on my team ....she just don't want advice from me on how to play better but she calls no one but me for a time out when she gets into a jam lol.

As for the time out thing.....i learned a while back not fo call one on her . She hates to have onw called on her no matter how many times I have told her it is easier to prevent her getting into a jam than it is trying to get her out of one.

 

[lorider]

Got a story to tell you about time outs with her.

Back when she was still a 2 we were playing league one night and the president of cpa. ...the Canadian branch of apa was in town visiting our lo and they both were at league that night.

The pres comes over and Introduces himself to me and I invite him to sit down and we strike up a conversation while my ex is shooting. She calls a time out.

I get up and after looking it over tell her what to do ..i sit down and the pres and I watch her shoot. After she shoots he said...wow that was an amazing shot. He says ...i hear you are a 5 ...correct ? And I reply yea. He said he was a 7 and never would have thought of that shot . He then asks ...how in the world did you think of that?

I replied after a few years of playing doubles with a 2 and having terrible cue ball control myself I have plenty of experience in getting out of jams with kicking ...banking and caroms. He started laughing.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

While reading this thread I thought of a question kind of pertaining to the topic, in 9 ball if u call safe but pocket a ball legally you obviously get the point but can it be marked as a safe if a ball is pocketed? The two way shot was what made me think of it for instance there's a way to play the shot so you can stop the cue ball, be directly behind another ball if you don't make it and also have position for the next ball if you do(again like perfect 2 way shot scenario) but if you play it this way and have "position" on next ball and either make it or Come real close like hanging it or rattling it In The jaws can it be marked a safe still?



I played apa for 3-4 sessions n started obviously as a 4 n went up to an 8 within the first 4 weeks tops. I think there was a rule u could only go up 2 spots a week or two spots every other week but I forget. And I do play semi-serious pool and like to think of myself as a strong competitor and occasional good player, but I have to admit I was the WORST score keeper ever continually cost my team the bonus points for scoring wrong and ended up paying someone to keep score for me when it was supposed to be my turn lol smh

Again, it is very simple. If you intended to *pocket* a ball, regardless of the outcome, it is not a safe. If you did not intend to pocket a ball, it's a safe. And in case you ask, if you attempt to not pocket a ball but do by accident, it is not a safe. This really does cover every possible scenario.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[Skippy27]

Again, it is very simple. If you intended to *pocket* a ball, regardless of the outcome, it is not a safe. If you did not intend to pocket a ball, it's a safe. And in case you ask, if you attempt to not pocket a ball but do by accident, it is not a safe.

So you say....

if you INTENDED to not make a ball, it is a safe. However, if you INTENDED to not make a ball, but accidently do it is not a safe.

So does INTENDED have 2 different definitions here?

The only way that would not be marked as a safe on my score sheet would be for you to not call out your intentions before you shoot. Even then if I perceive that you were trying to do that and failed I would still mark it. A failed safe by making a ball on your part does not negate the safe any more than you failing it by hitting too hard and not hiding behind the ball you were trying to hide behind leaving me a wide open match ending shot.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

This is not the APA or any league, it's a handicapped tournament I play in, I was just making a point that you can lose to a lower level player where you can still play well so you don't go down in skill, and the lower level player can beat you without going up.

Not sure where this particular little avenue started. But having read the last few posts, assuming you are talking about regular 9 ball...you don't miss 8's and 9's and lose 3-0 to someone and conclude that you "played well" lol. To me, that is the *definition* of dogging it. Maybe in APA 9 ball you can run most of the balls and miss every 9 and still win. But in a real 9 ball tourney, the definition of playing well is running *all the way out*...in my opinion. I often say "I was shooting well but just missed key balls". Then 2 minutes later I'm saying "I dogged it. I played bad. Just couldn't get it done".

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

So you say....

if you INTENDED to not make a ball, it is a safe. However, if you INTENDED to not make a ball, but accidently do it is not a safe.

So does INTENDED have 2 different definitions here?

The only way that would not be marked as a safe on my score sheet would be for you to not call out your intentions before you shoot. Even then if I perceive that you were trying to do that and failed I would still mark it. A failed safe by making a ball on your part does not negate the safe any more than you failing it by hitting too hard and not hiding behind the ball you were trying to hide behind leaving me a wide open match ending shot.

To clarify: In the APA, intention determines whether or not a shot is a safe. The only OTHER requirement is that your turn ends. If you intend a safe in APA 9 ball, for example, crap a ball in, and then run 30 more...you think that merits a safety mark on the scoresheet? I understand your initial confusion. Hopefully this alleviates that? (Also, in my area maybe 1 in 10,000 safes are announced before the shot. I always say so immediately after I finish my turn on a safe.)

KMRUNOUT