APA rules question

[Banks]

From what I remember of my last BCA session, the fouling player is not to touch the CB and should leave the table. That way you don't run into the problem of playing where the CB lies instead of playing it as BIH. I agree with Steve, though. If you're not watching your own damn match, that's your fault. As crappy as it may be for your opponent to not verbally tell you that you have BIH, it is also not their responsibility to babysit you and tell you everything that's going on.

 

[APA Operator]

I think you're right, and I'm pretty sure it was made for that reason.

Letting the cueball go through the table down to the gulley eliminates that "Is it Ball-In-Hand ?" issue.

Ok, and what's the penalty if you don't? Double ball in hand? It seems to me that this changes very little in the scenario as posed. The player caught the cue ball and put it on the table, and nobody saw it.

Letting the cue ball go down only eliminates the BIH question on scratches. On bad hits or table fouls the question still remains. Many of my players take it upon themselves to make sure the opponent knows they have ball in hand, and that's how I like to see it done.

The way APA would rule in this situation is as the others have described. If you shoot, it's on you. Personally, I frown on anyone who watches you shoot and doesn't stop you to tell you that you have ball in hand, just as I frown on anyone who would take a game from you for not marking the pocket, if it's clear that they knew where the 8 was going. As a league operator, I have to enforce that rule when requested, but I don't have to like it.

 

[pooltchr]

steve, that's just bad sportsmanship on ones opponent and team

I totally agree. But I still watch everything that happens when I am playing a match. Unfortunately, not everyone is blessed with the highest of ethics.

If I pick up the cb out of the pocket, and my opponent isn't there to hand it to them, I balance it on the rail, where they know it's bih.

Steve

 

[ridinda9]

I bellieve that is the rule for BCA tournaments.IDK about the APA.

but this is an APA rules question thread ! BCA rules mean LESS THAN NOTHING here !

I always tell my opponent when it is ball in hand whether they saw the foul or not. It's just good sportsmanship. I mean this is APA amateur pool league not some serious tournament. It's all in fun. If I notice I even tell my opponent if he is about to shoot the wrong set of balls. Nobody wants to win a game that way. The only thing I don't tell my opponent is to mark his pocket on the 8-Ball. That I think they should know better.

that's quite a fine distinction to make ! You'll tell him about one foul but not the other ? If he's going to shoot the wrong category of balls , there should be SEVEN other players on HIS team to watch & let him know . . . .

From what I remember of my last BCA session, the fouling player is not to touch the CB and should leave the table. That way you don't run into the problem of playing where the CB lies instead of playing it as BIH. I agree with Steve, though. If you're not watching your own damn match, that's your fault. As crappy as it may be for your opponent to not verbally tell you that you have BIH, it is also not their responsibility to babysit you and tell you everything that's going on.

Again , what you remember from BCA has no real place in an "APA rules question" thread ! However , you are correct that you are not his babysitter ! He should have brought a whole team full of them !!

Ok, and what's the penalty if you don't? Double ball in hand? It seems to me that this changes very little in the scenario as posed. The player caught the cue ball and put it on the table, and nobody saw it.

Letting the cue ball go down only eliminates the BIH question on scratches. On bad hits or table fouls the question still remains. Many of my players take it upon themselves to make sure the opponent knows they have ball in hand, and that's how I like to see it done.

The way APA would rule in this situation is as the others have described. If you shoot, it's on you. Personally, I frown on anyone who watches you shoot and doesn't stop you to tell you that you have ball in hand, just as I frown on anyone who would take a game from you for not marking the pocket, if it's clear that they knew where the 8 was going. As a league operator, I have to enforce that rule when requested, but I don't have to like it.

As you should know , APA Operator , in a National Tournament situation , the "double ball in hand" penalty DOES exist for certain offenses . If the referee makes that ruling , the non-offending player receives ball-in-hand , shoots until he misses , and receives ball-in-hand AGAIN , without the offending player receiving a turn . I have personally witnessed this penalty applied at an NTC a few years ago . . . .

 

[CK6Speed]

that's quite a fine distinction to make ! You'll tell him about one foul but not the other ? If he's going to shoot the wrong category of balls , there should be SEVEN other players on HIS team to watch & let him know . . . .

While I agree that his teammates should ultimately be the one looking out for their own, one reason why I am easy going on my opponents is because we consider most of them friends. I've only been playing APA for 3 seasons, but playing each team twice per season over time you get to know them. Also, I draw the line at marking the 8-Ball pocket because that is a given that never changes. Each game your ball set may change so while I am not that old yet (38) I too sometimes forget what set of balls I'm shooting. I always ask my teammates before I pull the trigger though if I don't remember, but I extend that courtesy to my opponent as well. Our league so far is filled with a bunch of cool teams and players aside from maybe 1 or 2 teams and a few players, so I don't want to take things too serious.

 

[APA Operator]

As you should know , APA Operator , in a National Tournament situation , the "double ball in hand" penalty DOES exist for certain offenses . If the referee makes that ruling , the non-offending player receives ball-in-hand , shoots until he misses , and receives ball-in-hand AGAIN , without the offending player receiving a turn . I have personally witnessed this penalty applied at an NTC a few years ago . . . .

Yep, it exists in the higher-level tournament rules, in the section on sportsmanship. Ball in hand may be awarded as a sportsmanship penalty, and if the player already has ball in hand, it works just like you describe.

 

[delarge]

Another reason why it is important to pay attention to your game!

If you didn't see the scratch, and shot it from that position, it's your fault. While the right thing would be for your opponent to tell you it's BIA, they are not obligated to do so.

You have an obligation to pay attention to your match.

Steve

im not stating what the rules are in what im about to say, just what i think they maybe should be....

i think it would be best if when the cb falls in the hole, the player at the table is penalized for touching it in any way. if we had this rule all along, there would not be a interum period where people foul and it really messes up some matches by touching the cb(theyd learn quick though). i do think one needs to watch the game, that is obvious i think... but if you are distracted by something out of your control, i just think the rule about player at the table not touching the cb is a good one... it solves things in a simpler manner. if you think about it, a player that misses/scratches has no business touching any balls anyway (at least in most games).

 

[rrick33]

fouls/BIH etc

I found it interesting how some players pick and choose when or if they will let their opponent know if there was a foul or they have BIH. I'm not sure if the rules make distinctions on the issue or if it is ruled unsportsmanlike or not but I recently played a match where my opponent would leave the area when it was my turn to shoot. He couldn't see the table because he was 40 ft away socializing. From what I could tell, he was completely disinterested in the match; however, based on his reaction to the events that followed, I believe he was actually using this strategy to try and shark me.

I was playing a safety and just barely missed the rail. My opponent returnd for his inning 60 seconds later and stood looking at the table for about 30 seconds. One of his team whispered something and then he asked if it was a foul. I said that it was.... and he launched into a tyraid as if I was trying to cheat him and stated that I was obligated to tell him.

I said I wasn't obligated to do anything. His head got all screwed up and he lost the match. I guess I'm in agreement with those who believe that if you're not participating in the match...it's your own fault; however, if my actions contributed to the confusion, like removing the cue ball from the pocket and placing it on the table, I think I would probably let my opponent know. Had I not intervened, the cue ball would be in the ball return and he would know he had BIH.

I think the rules do stipulate that sharking is unsportsmanlike and I could easily argue that he was continuously leaving the area and playing excessively slow. I'm not sure if anyone else would interpret it the same way but I believe he was doing so to mess with my head.

 

[Snapshot9]

Rules

Money rules - Let the buyer beware.
League rules - Let the seller be responsible.

In Money games, you are responsible for watching the game and know what is going on. You are to say something if there is a foul and/or question.

In League games, Most players say something if they foul, and/or something odd happens.

These two mindsets are always in conflict. But, if you notice, when the league play is raised to the National level, more of a money game mindset takes over rather than the 'good sport' league mindset.

 

[justadub]

I do find it tremendously annoying when my opponent isn't playing attention in a match. Being distracted once or twice because of a conversation, I guess I can understand, but sometimes it goes on all the time. Not terribly respectful. I know, it's league.

It happens in our in-house tournaments, too. Really set me off a few times this past summer, with someone I thought I was friendly with. A called-shot 8-ball tourney. My opponent is busy talking to someone, when I called a pretty extreme cut shot down the table, and made it. He starts to give me crap about how I called the side pocket, and then goes into telling me it's my responsibility to make sure he knows where I said the ball was gonna go. When I clearly said where I was shooting it, at the table. He went on to rant about that the whole night, to anyone who would listen. He and I had a similar problem the next week in a 9-ball tournament, which had a 3-foul rule.... suffice to say, it ain't much fun playing him any longer.

Pay a little attention when you're playing! Sheesh.

 

[myerspa]

Hey,

First of all in APA I believe it is a foul to snatch the cue ball out of the pocket when it's scratching. I've been told at my location that we are required to let the cue ball fall completely into the pocket. Probably this is to avoid that very scenario.

I would think though that sportsmanship should have won out on this one. Personally I would tell my opponent if they had ball in hand. I just wouldn't really want to win like that.