Well said!!! My captain told me the same, so I said sure!!! I'm a 7 and 9! I play my game 100% of the time!!! When I'm in match, I take some risks, when I'm gambling, I take the percentage shot!!! Only way for me!!!!
APA sandbagging?
- Thread starter dundeewizard
- Start date
yeah you can make a couple grand out there ez. Then head off to the poker tables!
That's how I feel about the league too!!! I just being called a bagger!!! I guess if you don't care what people think,,, its full bagging ahead
Yeah I don't care what people think at all and neither does my accountant. I could care about what people thought but then that would mean I valued insignificant peoples' thoughts and thats just plain silly.
That's great to hear. So what is your real skill level sir?
I am a team captain in APA. I hate people that sandbag. All the players on my team including myself give our best game every time.
Most of the tournaments in the greater Phoenix Metro are run under an Arizona Rating, or Handicapping System.
People come and play before someone on the rating committee. They are evaluated, and rated 4-to-10-2. With a Four being a very weak player.
People try, and fool the person doing the rating sometimes. So they can make a few event & make a killing before the rating committee can re rate em.
IMHO I use to think this rating thing was a good system, now I think 100% OPEN PLAY is the most honest way to run things, as everyone must try their hardest to win, or place.
People come and play before someone on the rating committee. They are evaluated, and rated 4-to-10-2. With a Four being a very weak player.
People try, and fool the person doing the rating sometimes. So they can make a few event & make a killing before the rating committee can re rate em.
IMHO I use to think this rating thing was a good system, now I think 100% OPEN PLAY is the most honest way to run things, as everyone must try their hardest to win, or place.
I always laughed when a lower handicapped player is all proud and bragging he beat a high handicapped player when you know the guy dumped to keep his handicap down. The sand bagging is one of the reasons I quit the APA, and I was on 3 leagues a week.
Me? I'm just an average pool player but the APA's handicapping is so screwed up I could easily be a 7 if wanted to. The fact is that the APA's rating system is very far off when it comes to the upper end of the spectrum. A "B" player and an open player could both be ranked a 7 and the truth is that there is a HUGE difference between those 2 sets of players. Truth be told they should have their rating system go to 10, have a higher team limit cap and use more info for their system, imho. In the end you just play the game that you're a part of.
Yes it's sandbagging and yes, it's rampant in the APA and has been for 20 plus years. It's why folks join due to the lure of Vegas and play for awhile then eventually leave and find other leagues or weekly tournaments to play in.
NAPA has a much better handicap system that eliminates sandbagging and BCA has one that is close. It just takes some folks time to figure it out for themselves. It's accelerated sometimes when folks realize that other leagues like NAPA and BCA have great Nationals as well, not to mention they're much easier to get qualified for.
APA has spend a lot of years looking for ways to divert attention from the problem of sandbagging and has implemented other things like the reduction system they put in back in the 90's which is also a double reduction on the 7's (why penalize your best players?) and more recently the 3 point scoring system which also penalizes the upper half of the skill levels in the league by giving a point to 2's, 3's and 4's for winning a single game and making it to the hill.
The funny part about sandbagging is it's still only a temporary thing because the scoring system for APA takes into account wins and adjusts your 'innings' accordingly whenever you win, giving you a minimum score. The problem, however, is that the minimum score takes time to have an effect on your handicap so the sandbagging is still prevalent for a very long time before it's caught up with in the system database.
APA is just a mess when it comes to handicaps and needs completely revamped but every amateur league wants their own stamp, or twist on how the amateur game is played so they've stuck with theirs for far too long. Vegas is great, I've been many times on APA teams, and you don't need to sandbag to get there. It's hard to win against the teams out there that do, though. A lot of teams end up losing to teams that sandbagged to get there and eventually will get raised up or dq'd out in Vegas but then, the damage is done and good teams have been beaten out. It's sad.
NAPA has a much better handicap system that eliminates sandbagging and BCA has one that is close. It just takes some folks time to figure it out for themselves. It's accelerated sometimes when folks realize that other leagues like NAPA and BCA have great Nationals as well, not to mention they're much easier to get qualified for.
APA has spend a lot of years looking for ways to divert attention from the problem of sandbagging and has implemented other things like the reduction system they put in back in the 90's which is also a double reduction on the 7's (why penalize your best players?) and more recently the 3 point scoring system which also penalizes the upper half of the skill levels in the league by giving a point to 2's, 3's and 4's for winning a single game and making it to the hill.
The funny part about sandbagging is it's still only a temporary thing because the scoring system for APA takes into account wins and adjusts your 'innings' accordingly whenever you win, giving you a minimum score. The problem, however, is that the minimum score takes time to have an effect on your handicap so the sandbagging is still prevalent for a very long time before it's caught up with in the system database.
APA is just a mess when it comes to handicaps and needs completely revamped but every amateur league wants their own stamp, or twist on how the amateur game is played so they've stuck with theirs for far too long. Vegas is great, I've been many times on APA teams, and you don't need to sandbag to get there. It's hard to win against the teams out there that do, though. A lot of teams end up losing to teams that sandbagged to get there and eventually will get raised up or dq'd out in Vegas but then, the damage is done and good teams have been beaten out. It's sad.
LOL 2-3 with "ball in hand" on a barbox makes you a pro???? I understand what you are going for but it is a Barbox... Is there a ghost rule in effect these days I never heard of??
Chris
Correct. If your running 8 ball out on a barbox with BIH after the break 2/3 times, or 66.6% if the time your playing at a pro speed. Certainly a speed higher than what the Apa intends to have.
I'd bet a top pro would have a higher runout percentage on a 9fter than a bar table playing 8 ball.
How often do you think earl would break and runout on a barbox playing 8ball?
There are stats on these kind of things. Unless you think BIH is that huge of a deal while playing 8 ball when its open after the break anyway?
Guys don't break and run nearly as much as people like to act like they do.
I have only played Valley leagues, and think that no one should be lower than a 4 for handicapping. A good player should not be lower than a 7, regardless of the actual average. I have seen the top two teams meet in the first week, and both teams end up with lower averages. The following weeks, they may get a spot against a weaker team.
There needs to be some common sense with the ratings.
There needs to be some common sense with the ratings.
We have over 100 players, and currently 4 sl7's. Right around 9 or 10 sl6's, and a couple teams have two each. It would be difficult to mandate having a 6 or 7 on every team. We are close, but a few of the teams that do have at least a 6 have played for a couple years before their 6 got raised to that level.
And no, I do not believe we have rampant sandbagging. Some probably pad their innings but the carrot just isn't there....we haven't had a team make it to Vegas in many years from our area.
We could conceiveably get close to your point range without the mandatory 6 or 7, though....we have many teams with three or four sl5's. It is rare to see any team here field a lineup that doesn't total 21 points, usually at least 22. The only reason would be players not able to make it that night.
Unfortunately it's a common request. Yes, it's sandbagging.
A lot of APA "sandbagging" is actually just the loser crying because he lost,
and he can't admit he just got outplayed by a lower ranked player.
Or ignorant players see a decent shooter dogging it, and think he's laying down
when really he just doesn't know how to close out a match.
But a few guys will try to game the system.
I've seen a lot of otherwise decent human beings get into it... guys who would drive 2 hours to pick up
a stranded buddy or lend you a grand with no questions asked and no repay date.
I was surprised at one or two of my own friends suggesting we do it.
They don't see it as cheating or robbing someone else out of potential prize money.
It's just a fun challenge, pretending to suck and trying to pass it off as natural.
I can see the appeal almost, but I just won't do it.
Don't think you should either Dundee. It's unlikely to get you anywhere anyway,
there are safeguards in place that might catch up to you, and bottom line is it's not right
to screw over the guys who are trying to advance honestly.
A lot of APA "sandbagging" is actually just the loser crying because he lost,
and he can't admit he just got outplayed by a lower ranked player.
Or ignorant players see a decent shooter dogging it, and think he's laying down
when really he just doesn't know how to close out a match.
But a few guys will try to game the system.
I've seen a lot of otherwise decent human beings get into it... guys who would drive 2 hours to pick up
a stranded buddy or lend you a grand with no questions asked and no repay date.
I was surprised at one or two of my own friends suggesting we do it.
They don't see it as cheating or robbing someone else out of potential prize money.
It's just a fun challenge, pretending to suck and trying to pass it off as natural.
I can see the appeal almost, but I just won't do it.
Don't think you should either Dundee. It's unlikely to get you anywhere anyway,
there are safeguards in place that might catch up to you, and bottom line is it's not right
to screw over the guys who are trying to advance honestly.
APA sandbagging? Couldn't that be helpful what with all the flooding that's been happening around the country?
I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist. :smile:
I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist. :smile:
Our league doesn't have rampant sandbagging.
The skill rating system has definite flaws.
The thing that I think isn't as fair as is allowing new players in their first session compete in the MVP races to go to the MVP tournaments. If you're a 6 and you stay half a session as a 4, then the other half as a 5, well, it's kind of easy pickings for you til they get you situated skill level-wise.
We encountered that recently in our league but that's alright. Personally I'd feel the taste of mvp to be a little salty knowing I won like that.
To your question though, it sounds like definite sandbagging and I wouldn't.
The skill rating system has definite flaws.
The thing that I think isn't as fair as is allowing new players in their first session compete in the MVP races to go to the MVP tournaments. If you're a 6 and you stay half a session as a 4, then the other half as a 5, well, it's kind of easy pickings for you til they get you situated skill level-wise.
We encountered that recently in our league but that's alright. Personally I'd feel the taste of mvp to be a little salty knowing I won like that.
To your question though, it sounds like definite sandbagging and I wouldn't.
I'd say if you are doing it only for the innings then yes, that's sandbagging. If you're doing it to try and prevent your opponent from having an easy rack after your break then no, I'd say that was smart and giving yourself a better shot at winning. Only the player knows, in their heart, if they are doing it for the right or wrong reasons.
I could see myself breaking soft against a really strong player, especially if I have been breaking and making nothing. Nothing to do with cheating...just trying to give myself a shot in a safety battle.
What about let's say if you're in a match, your opponent breaks dry - you miss, they run out. Same thing happens the next rack.
The third rack do you start giving them a loose rack?
Happened to me the other week and I lost all the respect I had for the guy I was playing. He did it twice after I ran out on him.