I think you might be on to something here.
APA scenario
- Thread starter dabarbr
- Start date
I think you might be on to something here.
i read this and thought the game should have been over. i called my lo and explained everything the op said.
my lo said the game was over as soon as the scratch was made regardless if the 2 continued shooting. regarding a bystander telling the 2 that the 3 scratched he saw no problem as he did not consider that coaching.
he stated that would be his ruling if it went down as the op said. he also said the that if there were no witnesses and it was a case of he said -she said he could see the match continuing.
my lo said the game was over as soon as the scratch was made regardless if the 2 continued shooting. regarding a bystander telling the 2 that the 3 scratched he saw no problem as he did not consider that coaching.
he stated that would be his ruling if it went down as the op said. he also said the that if there were no witnesses and it was a case of he said -she said he could see the match continuing.
That referee? Absolutely. But have you seen some of the bozo's the APA brings to Las Vegas? Some of those guys don't have a clue. But I digress...
you are right about that .
i remember watching the bcapl ohio state team championships on live stream 2 years ago. . in the semi finals if i remember correctly player a shoots at his ball and hits the 8 ball before he makes contact with his ball commiting a bih foul. player b comes to the table and picks up the 8 ball and places it back where it originally was and commences to shoot.
i am thinking hey he cant do that ! player a never said anything in fact nobody on either team said anything. i posted on here asking about the rule and bill stock said it was not only a foul but a loss of game foul.
mind you this was the semi finals in a state championship tourny. her i am ... a guy who has not played in bcapl for over 8 years seeing a serious foul commited and no one on either team caught it. just goes to show you shit don't only happen in apa it happens in all leagues.
Hmm...I hear you. This makes some sense. The one objection I have with this idea in the context if a singles tournament is this: a ref is assumed to be an authority on the rules, whereas any other spectator is not. People say a *lot* of incorrect things about APA rules. Of course the refs do sometimes too as evidenced by this thread. However, when a spectator butts in, they usually do so with some motive. Typically this is aiding their friend, spouse, girlfriend, etc. The ref would be assumed to be impartial. For these two reasons (bias and inaccuracy) a non ref volunteering info is potentially distracting and disruptive. For example, suppose the person claimed a hit was bad (whether it was it wasn't...doesn't really matter). By your reasoning, a spectator would be fine with saying "hey you have to hit your own ball first" on every shot the opponent takes. Hey he's just saying what a ref would say right? Wrong. He isn't because 1) he's gonna be wrong often, and 2) he is disrupting the match. The point that is missing from your philosophy is that in many cases a spectator doesn't know what a ref would say, and shouldn't be expected to always. As such, they should keep their chatter to themselves and let the players play the match.
Anyway that is my "philosophy" on the subject.
KMRUNOUT
Yeah, there is the potential for distraction or disruption, but I think that is a different issue and can be handled by a tournament official if it comes to that. At that point it's more about how they're doing it than what they're actually saying. A referee wouldn't sit there and question every hit, and neither should a spectator.
This is my second season of APA, so I was thinking about going to APA LV on my own dime. Do they use seasoned volunteers, and veteran players from their league?
As I understand it, you have to pass a fairly extensive test, with no wrong answers (or perhaps a very, very high score), in order to be able to ref there.
My LO gave me a copy of the test to take, just for my own knowledge (I had no intention of actually reffing, he gives all his Div Reps the test) but I have yet to tackle it.
Supposedly a lot of situational scenarios, in addition to the standard rules questions. I really should get into it one of these days, it will likely be quite interesting.
It is also possible that the refs were told. If you were not asked to come to the table to watch a shot and there is a discrepancy to replay the game. Or if play was not halted at the time of the discrepancy. As to not take sides after the fact as a ruling can only be upheld at the time of the infraction. What if players had to mark their wins and player A forgets to mark a game. They play two more games and player A loses but would have won if they had marked their game properly. Now I understand technically she won but neither player knew. Is it fair for player B to have played two more games and think they won just to have it taken away after the fact. I honestly dont know the answer.
The referees are all league players that have taken and passed the dreaded test. Don't misunderstand me, there are several really good one's, but there are some that are just "gawd-awful" and a fair number that have authority abuse issues.The good ones are few and far between. I think part of the problem is that when you agree to referee you sign up for the whole tournament, that's about 11 or 12 days in Las Vegas - way too much for most people. In the beginning the referees are excited and happy to be there, but by the weekend the enthusiasm begins to fall off.
Even if you go on your own dime, it's a fun thing to do for a few days. You get to meet a lot of people, play some pool in the mini's. My thought is that if you go just to go it can be a much better experience than if you go as a tournament participant
Look no further than double-hits. There are some referees that may not even know what a double-hit looks like and if they do, there's a good chance they wouldn't call a double-hit foul on any s/l 2 or 3. The problems just get worse from there. There are just too many referees below s/l 5. I know in their arena, being an s/l 4 or 5 might be impressive but in the grand scheme, these are novice players. Unfortunately, they have no idea.
I've seen and played S/L 4's and 5's that poop balls in faster than anyone can set up a shot and make it. The fact that they got there at all makes no sense whatsoever. They play by the edict that if you hit it hard enough it will go somewhere. This works in the APA. Some of those some folks referee in Las Vegas. Any idiot can read a book and pass a test, (well, most idiots) just knowing the rules isn't enough. I can read a book on surgical techniques, but you probably don't me replacing a heart valve or something like that (did I just call myself an idiot?)
I had the opportunity to referee in Vegas this year for the team nationals. It was an interesting experience. My first for the APA and as a referee. I'll try to reply to some of the questions.
Thanks!
Actually, I thought the referee's that I worked with were pretty good and knowledgeable. Since being my first time, they were very open and receptive to any questions.
Both, some of the referee's are experienced and return. Others such as myself, were new to the Nationals. I have experience from directing tournaments and making calls but this was my first time at the Nationals.
It was a long time but first was 9 ball and then 8 ball. So it was a little bit different experience. It was a job so there will be some that are better at it than others.
All the ref's are skill level 6 or higher. The problem with the double hit is the definition. We actually as a ref would explain "coach" a player that shooting the shot at an angle or away would "help" avoid a double hit. This was explained before each match about the coaching.
Overall my experience refereeing was good. I had the time and was able to experience the Nationals. I played in several Mini's and had a good time but it was long.
Thanks!
Actually, I thought the referee's that I worked with were pretty good and knowledgeable. Since being my first time, they were very open and receptive to any questions.
Both, some of the referee's are experienced and return. Others such as myself, were new to the Nationals. I have experience from directing tournaments and making calls but this was my first time at the Nationals.
It was a long time but first was 9 ball and then 8 ball. So it was a little bit different experience. It was a job so there will be some that are better at it than others.
All the ref's are skill level 6 or higher. The problem with the double hit is the definition. We actually as a ref would explain "coach" a player that shooting the shot at an angle or away would "help" avoid a double hit. This was explained before each match about the coaching.
Overall my experience refereeing was good. I had the time and was able to experience the Nationals. I played in several Mini's and had a good time but it was long.
'Any idiot can read a book and pass a test, (well, most idiots) just knowing the rules isn't enough". Might be wrong but that's exactly what you want from a ref or to watch a good hit. Why is it always the leagues or the refs fault. What about players not knowing the rules and being held accountable. You need to at least take it upon yourself to know the basics like what happens when your opponent scratches on the 8 ball. If I am not mistaken. In golf, even though your score is on scoreboards and on tv. If you turn in an incorrect scorecard you are disqualified. Even if you technically won the tournament. The player is held accountable. So if Tiger Woods makes a putt to win by 5 strokes and everyone is cheering. If he turns in an invalid scorecard he can be disqualified. Always easier to blame someone else. Players ruin leagues and that's the bottom line. There is a league and rules. Maybe some rules are not as clear as they should be. Maybe every once in a while something happens like this that might not be covered or worded correctly. Most leagues when brought to their attention will make changes. There are rule questions on here all the time. Not everyone agrees until someone points out the proper ruling. Common sense is not a rule. Sportsmanship is playing by the rules.
Oh, I don't know...
But I haven't played in most leagues. I do know that the rules in the books don't cover everything, I don't think they possibly could, and what if we interpret rule differently? Common sense is not a rule, you are correct, but neither is sportsmanship, you can't force someone to be a good sport. Rules are something everyone has to follow and has very little to do with sportsmanship. I think sportsmanship is showing you opponent the proper respect and courtesy, part of that respect is knowing the rules. But even the rules can allow you to play like an ass, for instance, in the APA there is an 8 ball match, Player A scratches on the break, player B takes BIH and intentionally lines up a shot straight into the side pocket from the middle of the table and shoots it, player A jumps up and shouts "foul" right in player A's face.
Who's the ass?
The rules may be on you side here, maybe it was your fault, maybe you lost focus, but it's still not very sportsman like.
There are fine lines in everything. In BCA I don't believe it is a loss of game to scratch on the eight as long as you don't make the eight. I use to play APA and when I switched to BCA it took a while to get use to the rules. Still getting use to the rules after two years. Then I see rule questions on here and I have to make sure what league they are referring to and look up the rule. I just put sportsmanship is playing by the rules because that seems to get lost so often in leagues. Well committing a foul isn't about sportsmanship. They way you approach your opponent when calling a foul is. I see things on here and people are like I just didn't feel like dealing with the ass so I gave him BIH. Who is right and wrong on that is still up for debate. I am not giving up my turn if I feel I played by the rules and feel confident I am right just because someone is a jerk.
The rule says you have to play that shot from the kitchen, but it goes on to say if you don't it's not a foul. To me, to know that and do it intentionally is not very sportsman like, it's like you know it's about to cause a problem and you're hoping for an argument. It's sort of like using the rules to break the rules, taking advantage of a loophole
I'm not sure who you mean by "they". Can you clarify?
Referees at the national level are all SL 6 and above. They all know the rules, have passed the APA's referee exam with a high score, and all of them referee events in their local area. And they all know what a double-hit looks like.
I think you MUST look further than double-hits. The double-hit foul is the most controversial call there is, because a large portion of league players have no clue what a double-hit is. The team manual could do a better job of explaining it, for sure, but pretty much everyone here is familiar with the reaction you get when you call a double-hit foul on someone who's clueless. They think you're trying to pull a fast one. You often get an angry reaction.
For this reason, APA takes a different approach on calling double-hits at the national level. Their reasoning is that a national event is not the right place to be educating players on what is or is not a double-hit, especially when those players are hot under the collar because of what they think was a BS call. Therefore, referees are instructed to explain to the shooter before the shot what they need to do to try to avoid a double-hit, and they are instructed not to call the foul if the player makes the attempt as instructed, even if a double-hit occurs. This is explained to teams and players prior to the shot. You may not agree with this approach, but it does make for a much smoother tournament and a better experience for lower-skilled players.
Here's what I tell my players/teams when they head to a national event (I don't have any local referees). Referees are humans, who make mistakes and have feelings. They are also all unpaid volunteers, not professional referees in any way. Therefore, do not expect them to have the patience and understanding that a professional would have. If you have a bad referee experience, make sure you provide feedback (with specific details) to the tournament directors, to help them make decisions on referees for future events. By all means, do not treat a referee with disrespect or speak to them in a condescending manner. As I mentioned, they are human and none of them are professionals. They will probably remember you next time you're on one of their tables, whether their experience with you was good or bad. Good is better.
That said, I still hear stories about bad calls made by referees every year. I take each one with a grain of salt, because I'm only hearing one side of the story. Upon further investigation, I often find out there was more to it than was reported to me. Sometimes it was actually a bad call, but other times there was more to it than that.