APA "Splitting Points"

How about he earns a reputation as being honest and going by the rules? I can't believe the way some minds work on this board.

This is simply not reality. Throwing my only option and new team under the bus, along with another team that agreed to a points split in a location without any other league options would result in me and my honest reputation without a place to play pool.

Playing pool is more important to me.
 
"..not only does he earn the reputation of being a rat for what a..."

How about he earns a reputation as being honest and going by the rules? I can't believe the way some minds work on this board.

Some of you apparently think if you get caught, then cheating is cheating. But if you don't get caught, then cheating is OK. WRONG - cheating is cheating. Someone is always adversly affected by cheating. Sooner or later all of you guys will be on the receiving end, you'll go to your League Operator or tournament directer for relief. Then you'll scream and whine like little girls if you don't get your way. All because their cheater cheated better than your cheater. It happens every session and/or every tournament.

I love my job. Which is being an APA League Operator since 1980.

Let the flames begin.

well, he could but lets' be real. In your heart would the APA be more likely to lose an interested player (not to mention possibly a whole team) or would all the players in MO be proud to have him. What would everyone say, then what would everyone do? Really, honestly, what?
 
I'm in APA and not sure if this is within rules or not, but a couple of times we just had makeup matches within a few days. Surely better than splitting points. I wouldn't go for that.
 
well, he could but lets' be real. In your heart would the APA be more likely to lose an interested player (not to mention possibly a whole team) or would all the players in MO be proud to have him. What would everyone say, then what would everyone do? Really, honestly, what?

We're probably going to lose players/teams over stuff like this, whether reported or not. I would rather lose the cheaters than those who silently quit because of all the cheating that we "do nothing about".
 
We're probably going to lose players/teams over stuff like this, whether reported or not. I would rather lose the cheaters than those who silently quit because of all the cheating that we "do nothing about".

The fact is there's nothing to do about it, and don't either of you dare try to put it back on the players, there are far more LO's that don't take an interest in what happens then there are that do.

Perhaps you, and TC and my LO here are the exception, and I know there are several others, but in reality there are more that I've had conversations with that have gone something like this: "Why would I want any of them to quit, if they play, I make money. It's a money making business" and I've thought about it, you all aren't LO's to develop players with good moral fiber. I'm sure you are hopeful that everyone is fair and upstanding, but the fact is that's not what it is everywhere and "splitting points" or what have you is all a part of that.

Many LO's are like politicians, they try to say the right things, like "If everyone kept score and recorded safeties the S/L system would take care of itself" or "They silently quit because of cheating that we can do nothing about" - both true. But those of us that wouldn't do this, or many other things, because we see those as a rule violation are far out numbered by the APA members that don't see it the way we do.

It's like health care or gun control, regardless of what side were on we can yell and scream or throw up our hands all we want but in the end all we have is a sore throat and sore hands. For all of our yelling and screaming health care and gun control is what they are.

So if the OP does tell, and if the LO does suspend, expel, or execute at dawn those that are guilty of splitting points and manipulating the innings and scoring system what has really happened. You've only treated a symptom, the disease goes merrily on.
 
The fact is there's nothing to do about it, and don't either of you dare try to put it back on the players, there are far more LO's that don't take an interest in what happens then there are that do.

Perhaps you, and TC and my LO here are the exception, and I know there are several others, but in reality there are more that I've had conversations with that have gone something like this: "Why would I want any of them to quit, if they play, I make money. It's a money making business" and I've thought about it, you all aren't LO's to develop players with good moral fiber. I'm sure you are hopeful that everyone is fair and upstanding, but the fact is that's not what it is everywhere and "splitting points" or what have you is all a part of that.

Many LO's are like politicians, they try to say the right things, like "If everyone kept score and recorded safeties the S/L system would take care of itself" or "They silently quit because of cheating that we can do nothing about" - both true. But those of us that wouldn't do this, or many other things, because we see those as a rule violation are far out numbered by the APA members that don't see it the way we do.

It's like health care or gun control, regardless of what side were on we can yell and scream or throw up our hands all we want but in the end all we have is a sore throat and sore hands. For all of our yelling and screaming health care and gun control is what they are.

So if the OP does tell, and if the LO does suspend, expel, or execute at dawn those that are guilty of splitting points and manipulating the innings and scoring system what has really happened. You've only treated a symptom, the disease goes merrily on.

I disagree with your opinion that the honest members are far outnumbered by the dishonest ones. We do run these leagues as a business, and in the long term, the business is much healthier if we do what we can to keep our members and teams honest. Sure, we may lose a team here and there by doing what has to be done, and there are no immediate replacements for them, but over the long run (20+ years for me, more for TC and your operator) it pays to build that reputation as an operator who keeps things fair. Within our network, we call it "doing your job", and we are constantly reminding each other that everyone is watching.

In our business, the cheaters are the disease, not the symptom. And I'm not just talking about members.
 
I don't know that I would consider them dishonest, in the greater, global sense I imagine that it we all are to some degree, but I digress...

Anyways, I don't know that I would consider them (or all of them) dishonest. It's just that as long it comes out even they don't see this as a crime. In rules that are loosely interpreted and applied I suppose there is an argument to be made that "splitting points" as described in fact isn't a violation.

Some might even see it as along the same lines with an LO giving bonus points for correct and timely score sheets being turned in with the correct amount of money in certain denominations, I know for a fact that is a practice in some places.

So though maybe misguided, they don't see this as being dishonest. I can think of times I have seen my opponent accidentally commit a foul and I have just smiled and let play continue, does that make me dishonest? I have also seen teams and captains agree to allow each other to exceed the 23 rule so they could play all five matches, does that make them dishonest? Does the LO go through every score sheet and count up the points played by each side then distribute punishment for the excess? and if they don't does that make them dishonest? and what if innings and defensive shots don't match up on the score sheet? Who is the dishonest party there? Is it the teams, or the scorekeepers, or the LO for not investigating and finding the correct number of innings and defensive shots? If you as an LO doesn't find the correct number of innings and defensive shots aren't you just as guilty for helping to manipulate the process?

There is a line to be drawn for sure, but it isn't always black and white. I do submit that there are a greater number of APA players that would see this as "not so bad" and a good compromise than those that wouldn't. Discretion is truly the better part of valor, would you really expect a player to throw two teams under the bus when the majority of people involved figured that this "wasn't so bad?"

I will advocate for Willy here in the circumstances put forward by his original post and say I think he handled this right. Still for his situation, if he had chosen to take this mater on up the chain of authority that would have also been correct. But as a newer player the correct play was to not rock the boat. Letting the captain know his feelings that this was not done correctly and with a warning that if there is a next time there may be other consequences was not only the best thing to do, but also the right thing under the described circumstances.

Incidentally, the 3 LO's mentioned here all have impeccable reputations and do an outstanding job. Don't think that your efforts aren't appreciated, we won't always agree, but you and the effort you put forth are greatly appreciated. Thanks for all you guys do
 
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you make some very valid points cellophane and i agree with most of them but ultimately i have to side with operator on this issue. i myself have encountered situations where i " bent " the rules ....in the name of sportsmanship of course. but you gotta draw the line some where .

i would rather see rule violators leave for being outed than see players leave that are uncumfortable playing with rule violators. i would welcome some one like the op on my team any day.

i can understand the op's concerns ...being new and all. i encountered the same thing in bcapl years ago and never said anything due to feeling just like the op does in his situation. having been around the block so to speak i would darn sure say some thing now if i encountered it.

i have bent rules on replays and overhandicaps . i do not know if some of you are aware of it or not but there is a line on your score sheet where you sign acknowledging you agreed to let the opposing team go over handicap that night.

back to the issue here though....its cut and dry. either you play the matches with players available and forfeit the rest or you reschedule. falsifying score sheets is not acceptable .
 
I agree that lines have to be drawn somewhere. In this situation, though, the only way for teams to "split the points" is to fabricate match data. I think that's well beyond any line you or I would draw.
 
Wow Celophanewrap! I think I can honestly say based on your post that you enjoy being in a gray area.

There are strict rules and then there are gentleman's rules (sportsmanship) in everything we do. Some of what you speak of above are clearly violations of strict rules and some are violations of sportsmanship. In the end, violating any of them either makes one a cheater (strict rules) or an a$$hat (sportsmanship) and sometimes a cheating a$$hat.

To the OP, it is ultimately on you but who really wants to play in an environment that encourages cheating and a$$hatery? How will the problems ever be solved if everyone just wants to look away because of the fear of not being accepted for doing the right thing? Attitudes like that is why you end up with the Eron's and Aurther Anderson's of the world and I dont just mean companies. You can reduce that down to towns, families and people as well.
 
Awww, now Skippy and everyone else, c'mon now. You all are telling me that you have never turned your head and looked the other way when someone has fouled during one of your games?

This "Splitting points" thing, I dunno, it's something that I'd never do and I'd agree that there are many black and white rules and on a higher level, during session playoffs, or LTC or NTC if you breathe wrong or fart at a bad time I'm likely to call a foul, but during regular weekly play I personally let an awful lot of stuff go, I think we all do.

For instance, how many of you have helped a beginner or a lower S/L player with their shot? A clear violation, or how many of you have seen your opponent commit a foul, but decided that it was better (for whatever reason) to just let it go, also a rule violation.

During weekly play I think there are many grey areas, it's supposed to be fun and if I have to let a foul go so someone can celebrate their first bank shot or if a beginning player accidentally moved the cue ball or someone bumped his or her cue and that caused the accidental movement of the cue ball well so what. If I'm too intense or angry it's no fun for anyone that way.

I think stuff like that, for me, has to be taken on a "case by case" basis. More serious things like "splitting points" and creating fictitious games and innings and I know that some teams I've encountered have a nasty habit of marking every miss as a defensive shot, these are things (and similar type things) I don't do.

What Willy did, recognizing the issue and taking it to his captain, I think that was the right move for him. He's obviously an honest guy that wouldn't cheat. Given the choice I'd rather have him resolve this issue this way than lose him from the APA.
 
To the OP, it is ultimately on you but who really wants to play in an environment that encourages cheating and a$$hatery?

Me.

I love this game, and I'm sincerely dedicated to becoming the best I possibly can. If I had any other league or regular competitive match options I would take them.

This is the only league within an hour of my home, my first league and my only option. The points splitting is not ideal, neither are the horrible playing conditions and tables.

In order to play pool outside of my basement I have resigned myself to living in some grey areas that I may not otherwise.

b

PS - We had a team unable to play last week and instead of 'splitting points' the match was rescheduled - this was after I spoke to my captain. I don't know if that had any influence or not, but at least it was done the right way *this time*.
 
Me.

I love this game, and I'm sincerely dedicated to becoming the best I possibly can. If I had any other league or regular competitive match options I would take them.

This is the only league within an hour of my home, my first league and my only option. The points splitting is not ideal, neither are the horrible playing conditions and tables.

In order to play pool outside of my basement I have resigned myself to living in some grey areas that I may not otherwise.

b

PS - We had a team unable to play last week and instead of 'splitting points' the match was rescheduled - this was after I spoke to my captain. I don't know if that had any influence or not, but at least it was done the right way *this time*.

Hopefully he realized how far out of bounds he was and that he ought to smarten up.
 
Awww, now Skippy and everyone else, c'mon now. You all are telling me that you have never turned your head and looked the other way when someone has fouled during one of your games?

If I am playing a low level and they do something minor like accidentally touch a ball while placing the QB or clearly were doing a warmup when they just barely tapped the QB I would not penalize them. They are still learning and typically giving someone like me BIH means the game is over, thus they are not going to learn much. However, I will point out the error to them but tell them to go ahead and shoot. Surprisingly, many want to do the right thing and give me BIH anyway. Higher level players (4+) do not get that courtesy as they should know better and should be at a skill level they are not doing piddly thinks like that.

This "Splitting points" thing,

The problem with this is that it effects the entire division, not just you and your opponent or just the teams doing it. If it had no affect outside of the 2 teams that do it, then I would be more inclined not to care. However, that is not the case. Their cheating can determine whether or not 2 teams even get a chance at the LTC or NTC.


For instance, how many of you have helped a beginner or a lower S/L player with their shot? A clear violation, or how many of you have seen your opponent commit a foul, but decided that it was better (for whatever reason) to just let it go, also a rule violation.

Coaching and choosing not to call a foul on your opponent are NOT rule violations.
 
Coaching and choosing not to call a foul on your opponent are NOT rule violations.

au contraire, mon ami, I believe the coach must come from your own team, The APA defines coaching as giving advice to YOUR teammate, not someone elses teammate, and not calling a foul could be considered manipulating one way or the other. I guess it's all in your perspective and your train of thought. I have never thought of helping out a lower ranked or beginning player from the other team as a foul, but the fact is by definition, it is. Though sporting and very sportsmanlike, in technical speak, it is a foul. But I imagine that we can agree that it maybe ain't so bad.
In my prior post I guess I wasn't very clear, I should have said "a lower rated player or beginning player on the opposing team, soory about that.

The Skill Level and scoring system to be accurate depend on honesty and we are warned as to the detriment of not recording the correct amount of defensive shots, adding and subtracting innings and conspiring to do so and so forth. Not calling a foul in certain situations, like those described before could be considered conspiring to manipulate innings, not recording the correct number of innings thereby manipulating inning counts and likely not recording a (by definition - ) a defensive shot in certain situations. But again, these, to me, are things that would fall in to grey areas.If you choose to think of me as a cheater because I'd dare to help out a lower rated player that was on the opposing team, or because I wouldn't call a foul when it technically was, well then I guess you might think of ma as a cheater. Skippy, I guess we both are. We'd both agree then that some things "ain't so bad"

I believe it's all in your perspective
 
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Coaching and choosing not to call a foul on your opponent are NOT rule violations.

Technically speaking, coaching your opponent IS a foul on them, as they are in violation of item (f) on page 52 of the Team Manual. Since you are not on your opponent's team you can't be his/her coach, so they would be receiving aid from someone other than the coach. But since you then can choose not to call that foul, I think you're ok. ;)
 
you make some very valid points cellophane and i agree with most of them but ultimately i have to side with operator on this issue. i myself have encountered situations where i " bent " the rules ....in the name of sportsmanship of course. but you gotta draw the line some where .

i would rather see rule violators leave for being outed than see players leave that are uncumfortable playing with rule violators. i would welcome some one like the op on my team any day.

i can understand the op's concerns ...being new and all. i encountered the same thing in bcapl years ago and never said anything due to feeling just like the op does in his situation. having been around the block so to speak i would darn sure say some thing now if i encountered it.

i have bent rules on replays and overhandicaps . i do not know if some of you are aware of it or not but there is a line on your score sheet where you sign acknowledging you agreed to let the opposing team go over handicap that night.

back to the issue here though....its cut and dry. either you play the matches with players available and forfeit the rest or you reschedule. falsifying score sheets is not acceptable .

I would agree, and I think you are totally correct, you do have to draw a line, though it's not always clear where and it not always in the same place. I think Willy being a newer player with an uncertain status on his team did the best thing he could have done under the circumstances. If this sort of thing were to happen a few sessions from now, I'm sure it would be dealt with quite differently. Incidentally, I have never noticed that space on the score sheet where you can acknowledge exceeding the 23 rule, though it wouldn't surprise me if we are a little behind over here, where is it?

I agree that lines have to be drawn somewhere. In this situation, though, the only way for teams to "split the points" is to fabricate match data. I think that's well beyond any line you or I would draw.

Absolutely
 
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There is an Elephant in the Room

Obviously, fabricating match data is wrong, but its amusing to see these APA operators with their panties in a twist when the whole league practically encourages cheating with their ridiculous handicap system.

You can't swing a dead cat or you will run into teams that (one way or another) manipulate players stats to keep their numbers down.

But the system is a brilliant business model, so I don't see that changing any time soon.
 
Obviously, fabricating match data is wrong, but its amusing to see these APA operators with their panties in a twist when the whole league practically encourages cheating with their ridiculous handicap system.

What the hell are you talking about? You clearly do not know the system, have a problem with handicaps in general or are butt hurt about some match you lost. Maybe even a combination of all 3.

I don't know of a single handicapped system that you don't have people trying to manipulate it to their advantage. Nor do I know of one that is 100% accurate 100% of the time.

As I have pointed out before I have shot people in league or tournaments at my rating from multiple areas/states rated in APA and they seemed pretty consistent with what I would of expected, except in 1 case.
 
Technically speaking, coaching your opponent IS a foul on them, as they are in violation of item (f) on page 52 of the Team Manual. Since you are not on your opponent's team you can't be his/her coach, so they would be receiving aid from someone other than the coach. But since you then can choose not to call that foul, I think you're ok. ;)

This would be a gray area and one that I believe would not be a foul. If that was not the case, then players would "coach" their opponent to get the ball back in a game losing situation.

Who defines when they have taken the coach? What if I tell them the obvious and easiest thing to do, does that mean they have to go a different route or they have fouled for taking illegal aide? See where this is headed? Coaching the opponent is like shooting the ball into your own goal or speaking too loud at the trivia table.
 
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