APA Strategy

[doitforthegame]

I'm a newbie to the APA. I haven't paid much attention to the strategy. This week is the first week of playoffs. So what do you do? Do you put your 7 against their 2? Or 4? Do you try to play the strongest right off the bat? (I'm assuming if you win 3 you are the winner of that playoff round. What is the strategy?

 

[socks]

because its a play off, yes you are only worried about winning 3 matches to advance rounds. you basically want to post whoever is the highest garuentee to win the match. don't forget anyone can win a game at any time against anyone else, especially in APA when slop is good up to the 8-ball. considering this you might want to hold your 7 to put against a 5 or 6 and throw a 4 or 5 against the 2 so they don't have to win as many games. i remember the last time i went to city when i was still playing apa 8-ball. i was a 7 and we had two 6s and three 5s and a 4 and because of the stupid points cap, i couldn't play and we had to also take 2 forfeits on top. needless to say we only made it to the second round . best of luck to ya'll.

 

[Maniac]

because its a play off, yes you are only worried about winning 3 matches to advance rounds. you basically want to post whoever is the highest garuentee to win the match. don't forget anyone can win a game at any time against anyone else, especially in APA when slop is good up to the 8-ball. considering this you might want to hold your 7 to put against a 5 or 6 and throw a 4 or 5 against the 2 so they don't have to win as many games.

I agree with this strategy. But IMO, if they "put up" first and they put up a SL6 or SL7, I wouldn't put a SL2 or SL3 up against them. A SL6 or SL7 in many cases only need two (unless there is a major cluster or two, or the opponent is playing safties)) trips to the table to finish off a game. A lower skill level player will surely give them more chances at the table than that. A SL4 or SL5 would have a way better chance to win this match, IMO. Losing the first match would put a lot of pressure on the rest of your team, probably more so on the lower skill level players. Just my $.02.

Maniac

 

[Jeff]

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and sacrifice one of your team as cannon fodder.

If they put up a guy who you know your best players can not beat, don't waste them. Send a two if you have one or a three. Your two might get lucky one game or the other guy might screw up one game.

 

[Maniac]

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and sacrifice one of your team as cannon fodder.

If they put up a guy who you know your best players can not beat, don't waste them. Send a two if you have one or a three. Your two might get lucky one game or the other guy might screw up one game.

This is hard to do in a race to three (to sacrifice). I think I would shoot my three highest players in a row on playoff night. I might make an exception or two if some of my lower players have had an extremely hot hand as of late, or I had good success in the first two matches. Course, I'm not exactly the "sharpest tool in the shed" either. I don't get into the strategy discussions on our team, I just play when they tell me to .

Maniac

 

[SCCues]

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and sacrifice one of your team as cannon fodder.

If they put up a guy who you know your best players can not beat, don't waste them. Send a two if you have one or a three. Your two might get lucky one game or the other guy might screw up one game.

Good suggestion and I look at it like this, if the opposing team puts up a player that's capable of beating my best player then I want to put up one of my players who probably won't win anyway against a good 4 or 5 such as a weak 2 or 3. If I think my top player has an advantage and can take out their high ranked player I go for it and try to win 3 matches as quick as I can. Sometimes you can win the match just by making the right decision matching up your players correctly. Making mistakes wasting your best players against the wrong players can put you in a spot where you have to depend on a 2 or 3 handicap player to save the match and that's not good unless you have a sleeper who's under handicapped.

 

[Da Poet]

I agree with most everything so far.

The analogy I like to use is that it's a bit like playing Hearts. (The card game) If you know the game then you'll understand the analogy.

 

[doitforthegame]

Sounds like who has the first pick deceides how the match goes. They go first and put up a 7. We might put up a 4 or 5 that has had a hot hand of late. Then no matter what happens, we put up our 7. Then I guess it plays out by playing your best players no matter what.

 

[FLICKit]

Sounds like who has the first pick deceides how the match goes. They go first and put up a 7. We might put up a 4 or 5 that has had a hot hand of late. Then no matter what happens, we put up our 7. Then I guess it plays out by playing your best players no matter what.

Hardly.... Don't try to oversimplify. There are many strategies and complexities which come into play.

Throwing your best players up first is often the worst strategy possible.

Since it all comes down to winning 3 of 5 matches, everything is about how best can you get 3 from your team to matchup favorably enough to win. But, since you don't get to control exactly how the 5 matchups will be, it becomes a much more sophisticated set of choices. The choices can even change based on the outcome of previous matches.

If you come in with an oversimplistic strategy that you listed above, any reasonable opposing captain should be able to match up in ways to beat your team.

Simply stated, if team #1 throws out its 2 strongest players in such a simple manner such that team #2 can match up its 2 weakest players against them. Then the remaining challenge is how can team #2 get its best 3 players to matchup against the 3rd, 4th, and 5th best players on team #1?
In essence, you play your 3 worst of the 5, against my 3 best of the 5, and I'll win that battle a clear majority of the time.

Even if you do defy odds and win a match or two. You won't do it long enough to go very far in the tournament.

 

[Jeff]

Something else you have to take into account is the ability of any 7's on the team (yours and theirs).

If you are playing past your local area, then you probably won't know the other team unless you have a chance to watch them play someone else.

But in APA, the skills top out at 7, and as we all know there are people playing in leagues that would be a 12 if the skill level went that high. So the other team puts up a 7 and you know the guy is a LOT better than an average 7.

Do you put your 7 up or do you throw some bait out there for him to eat?

If you have a really good 3 or 4 player who is underrated, do you put them up?

If it was me, I would throw my worst player up there or a two if I had one.

If their 7 can beat anyone on my team, I would have to be real stupid to put up any of my top 4 players.

 

[hobokenapa]

I'm a newbie to the APA. I haven't paid much attention to the strategy. This week is the first week of playoffs. So what do you do? Do you put your 7 against their 2? Or 4? Do you try to play the strongest right off the bat? (I'm assuming if you win 3 you are the winner of that playoff round. What is the strategy?

I've played APA for years. I closely study the statistics and strategy, and have tried to learn from the mistakes I have made. It's not just about which SL to put up against who. Know your players. Some play better leading off, some play better under pressure, some have 'bogie' players, some raise their game against certain players. Are they 'up for it', or are they scared? The captain's role is to get the best matchups for your team, and to give them the best chance.

The number one important rule in APA playoffs is if you win the toss, PUT UP FIRST. No exceptions. Ever. If your opponents make you put up first (usually the best play in a regular League match), smile at their mistake then plan accordingly. The reason is the 4th match. If you lead 2-1, they have to put up. You can then safely dodge their best player and give your closer the easiest match (your star 7 against their muppet 3). If you are down 2-1, you can set up two even games and give yourself a fighting chance. You never want to be putting up fourth in playoffs.

Example : Both teams left with SL7 and SL3. Assume both are even games.

If you are up 2-1, and they put up. You can create two even games. You just need win 1 so your odds of winning the match are 75%.

But if they put up their SL7, you put up your SL3 so your SL7 plays their SL3. and vice-versa if they put up their SL3.

SL7s are big favorites against an SL3, let's say 90%. Your odds of winning the match now are 91%.

A couple of years back in the Region playoffs for Vegas, we used the tactic that as soon as we got two wins or two defeats, our star SL7 plays to get the match done asap, or make sure he plays. It worked very effectively for six matches until the semi-final where he lost, and we had a nervous time as our SL4 beat their SL4 on the hill. I'm still open to suggestions about this strategy.

Don't save your best players until it's too late! Last week in the playoffs, the opposing team had 7,6,4,4,2. We had 7,5,4,3,3. They win the toss and obviously throw first. They lead with a 4, so our play must be our good SL3. We win a very close 50/50 match. Now our 7 is much stronger than their 7 (our 7 is a 8/9, theirs is a 6/7) so we wanted that matchup so our Super 7 can take out their best player. We knew their 7 would avoid this at all costs. So, we cannot throw our 5 when its our turn, and give him a chance to get a win. The play is now our other SL3, and they correctly come back with their other 4. The mistake they made was then to throw their SL2?! (games 2 and 3 were agreed to be played simultaneously). Now we know their SL2 plays more like a 4 or 5 so we throw our weak SL4 expecting the score to be 2-1 up then our SL7 takes out theirs, or our strong SL5 beats their SL6 (both matches strongly in our favor). But their SL2 (in his first season) was very nervous so our weak SL4 wins, and so does our SL3 so we win the match 3-0 and their SL7 and SL6 never played!

Finally don't underestimate the team element. Be on a team of people you like, and those that respect (and understand) when the matchups do not suit them. If you get someone that demands to play, or gets angry when they do not, show them the door. You need eight team players, not eight individuals.

Good luck this week!

 

[ScottW]

This week I'm going into playoffs as my team captain for about the sixth or seventh session in a row. This is just the kind of stuff that's on my mind. On top of that, we do the 'double jeapordy' thing - play 8 and 9 ball on the same night - and I believe we're the only team going into playoffs in both in our division.

I pretty much agree with everything hobokenapa posted. Sensible strategies.

NEVER throw your seven (or your strong six if you don't have a seven) up when it's your put-up if you can help it. All that does is invite the other team to play off - to throw a 2 or 3, hoping for the against-the-odds win, but mainly to eat up your handicap points. Throwing a 2 on a 7 means you can throw 5s on 4s, 4s on 3s for several matches, to make up that point differential. That can be fatal.

And never underestimate a seven's ability to completely screw themselves up in the head playing against a low handicap player. High ranked players HATE it when they have to play that weak player - because they have to win five or six games to the weaker player's two - and it doesn't take many mistakes to give those two games away, especially if you're all wiggy because you KNOW you can't give those games away.

Playoffs at the end of last session - final round. We'd taken 1st so we were going to the post-session tournament anyhow, but we still wanted to win the playoffs. We come up against a fairly weak team, but they have a strong 7 on their team. I know this guy, and from the get-go I plan to play one of my threes, a woman, on him. This guy is somewhat of a misogynist and I figure the handicap + female combo will work in our favor on him.

Comes down to 2-2 and the final match, and guess who's left on both teams to play? My girl 3 and their 7. Match starts. He gets a couple or three games. Then he goofs, plays a shot a bit hard, cue ends up knocking the 8 in early. He racks, she breaks dry. He shoots, makes a shot - shoots again, and KNOCKS THE EIGHT IN EARLY AGAIN. Twice in three shots. Game, set, match.

Never underestimate the strategic play-off.

To all the rest of you folks going into playoffs - good luck, shoot well!

 

[Cory in DC]

Hoboken and Scott W. gave some solid advice, in fact, I wish they hadn't posted that information! To this day, even in higher level play, opposing teams still look at me like I'm nuts when I win the toss and choose to put up first. But having control of the last two matches has been essential to many comebacks when my team got down 2-1.

Since we're giving secrets away here, here's one more, useful when your team manages to get down 2-0. This mostly applies when you don't know the players on the other team and when you have to put up 3rd. But here goes: since you have to win all of the next 3 matches, there's no point getting wins unless the worst of your three remaining players can win. So the key is to get that player a reasonable matchup. And the way to do that is to put them up third.

This works for several reasons:

1) The other team will assume you're playing a strong player, just because you're down 2-0 (because nobody likes to get swept). They will, accordingly, throw out the worst of their three remaining players.

2) Some teams, when up 2-0, will send someone out to dump the match.

3) Other teams, when up 2-0, will send out a weaker player who doesn't normally get to play when it's "go-time", just to spread the play around a bit.

The main exception to this is when the other team has a 7, because a lot of teams will in fact go for the 3-0 kill at that point. If that's the case, then you almost have to play a 4, which a lot of 7's will avoid (5-2 is the biggest spot in APA, and it's tough to give out since a lot of 4's can get out if you make a small mistake.)

Cory

 

[ScottW]

The main exception to this is when the other team has a 7, because a lot of teams will in fact go for the 3-0 kill at that point. If that's the case, then you almost have to play a 4, which a lot of 7's will avoid (5-2 is the biggest spot in APA, and it's tough to give out since a lot of 4's can get out if you make a small mistake.)

Heh, actually, 7-2 is the biggest spot. When a 7 plays a 2, and that 2 has to win a minimum of two games. But when down 2-0, and the other team goes strong, you can't play a player that weak in response - throwing a 4 up is the smart move.

But that tidbit aside - the 'other team won't throw a strong player on the third match' bit isn't usually what happens, at least in my experience. Usually it's 'go for the kill'. If the team putting up third is down 2-0 - they throw a weak player, I throw a higher handicap player (but only one or two points higher, to avoid a big spot). If they throw a strong player, I either throw a weak player and play a stronger player on match four (assuming my weak player doesn't pull an upset), based on their remaining points/roster. But hey, that's me.

 

[Jeff]

If I am up 2-0 and choosing, I will always throw up the strongest player I have left.

At that point you go for the kill. The other team is down and in a must win situation and they know it and whoever they put up knows it. Unless the player they put up has no nerves at all, he will be nervous and he will play cautious. Your player is going in knowing his team is up 2-0 and even if he loses, his team will still be ahead.

The pressure is all on the other guy, you will never be in a better position to put it away, so you go for the kill.

Just my opinion.

 

[Da Poet]

Just a little exercise in numbers in case your head isn't throbbing enough from the different stategy options.

Assuming you can play any combination of players without going over 23,

First match you have 8 players to choose from, second match you have 7, third 6, fourth 5, and fifth 4.

That's 6720 different ways you can play just your own team.

Can you tell I've spent too much time at the dog tracks?

Assuming you are playing another team of 8 that can do the same thing, you have a grand total of 13,440 different possible matchups. (6720 x 2)

Isn't math fun?

 

[Jeff]

Assuming you are playing another team of 8 that can do the same thing, you have a grand total of 13,440 different possible matchups. (6720 x 2)

Isn't math fun?

Then why do I always end up playing the same people twice each session.

 

[ScottW]

Assuming you are playing another team of 8 that can do the same thing, you have a grand total of 13,440 different possible matchups. (6720 x 2)

Oh I think there's a wee bit more possible combos. Can't just multiply by 2. It's an exponential thing.

 

[Jeff]

Oh I think there's a wee bit more possible combos. Can't just multiply by 2. It's an exponential thing.

8.15 to the 63rd

nope, made a mistake, it's 2.94 to the 62nd

 

[Da Poet]

Then why do I always end up playing the same people twice each session.

Good question! I've noticed that myself!

That's a whole different question.

In reality, the selections are far from random and once you start eliminating the variables, the numbers drop exponentially. If both teams only use the same five players for two matches, then randomly, you have a one in five chance of playing the same player twice. But the reality is one of the captains will try to get the same matchup since one team won the last one.

Does that sound about right?