Are kill shots necessary?

[tedkaufman]

It's true that on a perfectly true table soft stroking is just as effective as using draw drag. (Incidentally, "killing" the cueball refers to using inside english to hold the cueball off a rail, not draw drag.) However, it's damn rare to find even a well set up table that has no inconsistencies. Also, all it takes to knock a slow rolling cueball off its path is a tiny grain of chalk or other debris. To my thinking, since a draw drag shot is easy to learn, why not use it? The other thing, I find it a hell of a lot easier to maintain accuracy over any sort of distance if I can stroke a shot instead of tap it.

 

[Williebetmore]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the major advantage of slow roll over draw drag (first pointed out to me by Danny DiLiberto). POSITION.

The position of the cue ball after contact is easier to predict with the slow roll than with draw drag (if you doubt this, shoot 20 shots each way and report - of course we won't believe you if your draw drag position is better than your slow roll position). In addition, if the table is great and level; your pocketing percentage will go up as the object ball speed drops (on well maintained equipment I have NOT noticed chalk deposits throwing anything off line very often - seems extremely rare).

The upshot (at least in 14.1) is that you never hit hard when you can use draw drag, and you never use draw drag when you can slow roll it (the equipment and lay of the balls will dictate this). There is definitely some equipment where slow rolling is NOT a good idea (like the aging IPT cloth - I'll bet those guys are terrified if they have to slow roll something - the cue ball and object ball waver all over the place - crappy cloth IMO).

Having said all of that, I do know one old-school 14.1 master who slow rolls almost everything; and another old-school 14.1 master who draw drags almost everything. Each to their own.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

In addition, if the table is great and level; your pocketing percentage will go up as the object ball speed drops (on well maintained equipment I have NOT noticed chalk deposits throwing anything off line very often - seems extremely rare).

What a little confidence and a meticulously maintained table allow, is awesome. I find tables of this quality, hard to find in public. That's why I really enjoy the chances I get to play on well kept, private tables (by the way, thanks again Willie). My wife has been looking at houses and I am going to hold fast to my, "It must have room for a 9 footer!", stance.

Tracy

 

[mikepage]

[...] So why kill the shot when you can just roll the cue ball softly?

Chris

I can think of four separate reasons a player might choose drag draw (dd) over slow roll (sr).

1. Because the dd cueball on average travels faster, it is less susceptable to problems from an unlevel table.

2. Swerve is less of an issue. Even for centerball (i.e. no sidespin) shots, there may be an unintended 1 or 2 mm of sidespin. When you hit harder, the swerve starts later and overall has less bad effect.

3. For sidespin shots, you can get a higher spin to speed ratio (i.e., more sidespin) with dd because speed is wiped off on the way to the object ball, leaving greater spin than the sr shot for the same natural roll strike on the object ball.

4. This is an important one, imo. Thinking about cinching a long tough 9-ball shot. Or think about Efren cinching a long, tough 9-ball shot. You (anf Efren) never hit it pocket speed. You hit it with a firm, medium stroke. The reason for not slow rolling this ball may partly be to avoid table rolls, but I think the main reason is we are most accurate somewhere in the middle of our speed range. For all of us, our accuracy goes down as we go either harder or softer than out cinch-stroke speed. DD allows you to stroke closer to your most accurate speed.

 

[Jal]

The only instance I can think of where I prefer a drag-draw stroke (on a level table) instead of a slow roll, is getting position on the 2ball from the 1ball like this:

CueTable Help

The cueball doesn't show up, so it's point 'A', and point 'B' is where the cueball stops.

When I use the drag draw stroke on this shot, it seems to give slightly more force to the 1ball, so it doesn't just barely make it to the hole. The 1 seems to go fall with a faster pace. When I roll this shot, alot of bad things can happen, like skid, or the 1ball doesn't even make it to the hole. For some reason, with a soft drag draw stroke, I can control this shot much better.

This is one situation where a drag shot is called for, in my opinion. It's roughly a 30 degree cut or half ball hit. At this angle with natural roll on the cueball (slow roll), the cueball and object ball will travel about the same distance after impact. So it looks like the cueball will travel too far if the 1-ball is to reach the pocket (with a little bit of speed left over for good measure).

I don't know the physics aspect of why this shot works better for me, maybe someone can explain. Perhaps I might accidentally be adding some outside english at the last second, throwing it in and reducing the angle. I can really hold the cueball better this way.

I'll give it a try.

If you stun into the object ball at a 30 degree cut, the cueball will travel about a third of the distance of the object ball, less if you figure in friction (throw). With drag draw the cueball will probably have topspin at impact intermediate between stun and natural roll, so it will travel somewhere between 33% and 100% of the object ball distance.

I don't think you can get much assistance from outside english. What gain you get from a reduction in cut angle is more or less lost because of the reduced friction between the cueball and object ball. In other words, the cueball isn't slowed as much from the friction, and by about the same amount as the extra braking action of the fuller hit.

Hope that makes sense.

Jim

 

[skins]

The only instance I can think of where I prefer a drag-draw stroke (on a level table) instead of a slow roll, is getting position on the 2ball from the 1ball like this:

CueTable Help

The cueball doesn't show up, so it's point 'A', and point 'B' is where the cueball stops.

When I use the drag draw stroke on this shot, it seems to give slightly more force to the 1ball, so it doesn't just barely make it to the hole. The 1 seems to go fall with a faster pace. When I roll this shot, alot of bad things can happen, like skid, or the 1ball doesn't even make it to the hole. For some reason, with a soft drag draw stroke, I can control this shot much better. I don't know the physics aspect of why this shot works better for me, maybe someone can explain. Perhaps I might accidentally be adding some outside english at the last second, throwing it in and reducing the angle. I can really hold the cueball better this way.

Also, I'm not 100% sure this is the exact angle of the shot I'm talking about. I'm gonna practice it today and find the exact angle. If the angle is different, just by a few degrees, slow rolling for me is no problem.

Edit: 'A' isn't showing up either, so the cueball starting position is at the point of the green line.

the way i've always played this shot is to aim more full, slow roll the cue with extreme left english and throw it in, no drag draw is needed. the cue will swerve a little to get a better angle on the 1 and then throw it in the side. with practice this shot is pretty impressive. done this way, at this angle, the cue will roll about 7 to 10 inches and the 1 will slide in the left side of the pocket leaving a good shot the 2.

 

[Jal]

the way i've always played this shot is to aim more full, slow roll the cue with extreme left english and throw it in, no drag draw is needed. the cue will swerve a little to get a better angle on the 1 and then throw it in the side. with practice this shot is pretty impressive. done this way, at this angle, the cue will roll about 7 to 10 inches and the 1 will slide in the left side of the pocket leaving a good shot the 2.

For the reasons given in my last post, I really don't think there's much of anything to be gained with english.

When you're using enough outside to throw the object ball opposite of its usual throw direction, the cueball will be propelled by the same ball/ball friction a little faster along the tangent line after impact (instead of being slowed). Unless the balls are pretty close to each other, in which case you could soft stun into the object ball for maximum braking, the speed increase from the friction closely matches the reduction from the fuller hit. What one hand giveth, the other taketh away.

Jim

 

[cuetechasaurus]

For the reasons given in my last post, I really don't think there's much of anything to be gained with english.

When you're using enough outside to throw the object ball opposite of its usual throw direction, the cueball will be propelled by the same ball/ball friction a little faster along the tangent line after impact (instead of being slowed). Unless the balls are pretty close to each other, in which case you could soft stun into the object ball for maximum braking, the speed increase from the friction closely matches the reduction from the fuller hit. What one hand giveth, the other taketh away.

Jim

Are you sure about that? There are some shots that are are almost straight, and you can throw the shot in with outside, and it seems to straighten up the angle, because there is very little cueball movement afterwards.

 

[TorranceChris]

For the reasons given in my last post, I really don't think there's much of anything to be gained with english.

When you're using enough outside to throw the object ball opposite of its usual throw direction, the cueball will be propelled by the same ball/ball friction a little faster along the tangent line after impact (instead of being slowed). Unless the balls are pretty close to each other, in which case you could soft stun into the object ball for maximum braking, the speed increase from the friction closely matches the reduction from the fuller hit. What one hand giveth, the other taketh away.

Jim

Actually, I find this not to be true in my experience. For example with the object ball in the middle on the bottom rail with the cue ball on the corresponding position on the top rail, one can do an extreme english with swipe english and propel the object ball into the corner pocket. With no swipe english, it would never make it to the pocket. This, to me, proves that english does propel the ball.

After re-reading the post, I realized that the topic was more on the action of the cue-ball afterward. I still believe that with swipe-english you can hit the ball fuller and thus keep the cue-ball on a tighter leash keeping it in the area as cuetechasarus is saying above. It seems to me that then it helps with propelling the ball into the pocket cuz of 1) fuller hit 2) more impetus from the english and then 3) keeping the cue ball in the area.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

For the reasons given in my last post, I really don't think there's much of anything to be gained with english.

When you're using enough outside to throw the object ball opposite of its usual throw direction, the cueball will be propelled by the same ball/ball friction a little faster along the tangent line after impact (instead of being slowed). Unless the balls are pretty close to each other, in which case you could soft stun into the object ball for maximum braking, the speed increase from the friction closely matches the reduction from the fuller hit. What one hand giveth, the other taketh away.

Jim

I think this is on topic, hopefully I'm not going off on a tangent. I have noticed, that I can draw the cue ball at a more acute angle when using inside english. I try to figure out why that is, but can not understand what is happening. Does anyone know why this happens?

Tracy

 

[Snapshot9]

I'll bet

The only instance I can think of where I prefer a drag-draw stroke (on a level table) instead of a slow roll, is getting position on the 2ball from the 1ball like this:

CueTable Help

The cueball doesn't show up, so it's point 'A', and point 'B' is where the cueball stops.

When I use the drag draw stroke on this shot, it seems to give slightly more force to the 1ball, so it doesn't just barely make it to the hole. The 1 seems to go fall with a faster pace. When I roll this shot, alot of bad things can happen, like skid, or the 1ball doesn't even make it to the hole. For some reason, with a soft drag draw stroke, I can control this shot much better. I don't know the physics aspect of why this shot works better for me, maybe someone can explain. Perhaps I might accidentally be adding some outside english at the last second, throwing it in and reducing the angle. I can really hold the cueball better this way.

Also, I'm not 100% sure this is the exact angle of the shot I'm talking about. I'm gonna practice it today and find the exact angle. If the angle is different, just by a few degrees, slow rolling for me is no problem.

Edit: 'A' isn't showing up either, so the cueball starting position is at the point of the green line.

a $1 you can't make that one and hold the cue to point b .... lol

Kill shots are not only necessary, but a vital part of the game. It is usually a combination of low and spin, usually shot fairly soft to medium
stroke, and more often than not with inside english so that it works against the natural tendency of the angle and the cue ball.

I am a big believer in going the 'extra rail' if you can, but sometimes that
is not feasible, and kill shots are highly important, at those times, in order
to get shape on the next ball.

 

[Jal]

Are you sure about that? There are some shots that are are almost straight, and you can throw the shot in with outside, and it seems to straighten up the angle, because there is very little cueball movement afterwards.

Sorry for the delay but I had to re-familiarized myself with some work I had done a while back.

At small cut angles, the method you describe is fairly effective. You don't get much reduction in cueball travel distance, but it is significant since the ball doesn't travel very far in the first place. As an example, for a 5 degree cut with the cueball traveling at 5 mph before impact, and with the balls separated by about a foot, and with the right amount of outside english (about a third of maximum), you can probably reduce the post-impact travel distance from 3" to 2". Not much in absolute terms, but it is a 33% reduction. You can get a greater reduction if the balls are closer together, less when the balls are farther apart.

As the cut angle increases, the percentage reduction drops off. For a 30 degree cut with the cueball traveling at 2 mph, and again a ball separation of about a foot, with close to maximum outside english you can reduce the cueball's travel distance from about 16" to 14". However, the actual reduction will be less because I didn't figure in swerve, which increases the cut angle, given the same contact point on the object ball. With enough swerve, the cueball will actually travel farther than with no english.

The above numbers were generated for a stun into the object ball, where maximum throw occurs. I wouldn't take them too literally as conditions vary, but I think they're indicative of the general trend. If the cueball has some draw or follow, the technique is even less effective because the swing in the magnitude of the throw is less.

If you believe these numbers then, it doesn't look like you get much braking action at all, but what little you do get is more apparent at small cut angles.

Jim

 

[Rod]

The shot I'm talking about is when you use soft draw to slow the cue ball before impact. There are many ways to change the tangent and kill the cue ball off the rail or after impact. I am strictly discussing using soft draw to slow the cue ball before impact.

Chris

Chris, I play a lot of these shots as you do, slow roll. However table/conditions determine how a shot should be played. From lessons I learned (my mistakes) that both are necessary. BTW I call em sliders, haven't adapted to the term drag draw and this point probably never will.

Rod

 

[Jal]

Actually, I find this not to be true in my experience. For example with the object ball in the middle on the bottom rail with the cue ball on the corresponding position on the top rail, one can do an extreme english with swipe english and propel the object ball into the corner pocket. With no swipe english, it would never make it to the pocket. This, to me, proves that english does propel the ball.

True, english does add some speed, but very little. It's main function here is to change the direction of the cueball off the cushion, and correct the direction of the object ball.

After re-reading the post, I realized that the topic was more on the action of the cue-ball afterward. I still believe that with swipe-english you can hit the ball fuller and thus keep the cue-ball on a tighter leash keeping it in the area as cuetechasarus is saying above. It seems to me that then it helps with propelling the ball into the pocket cuz of 1) fuller hit 2) more impetus from the english and then 3) keeping the cue ball in the area.

I agree with everything you said, but it is a question of degree, literally.

The friction effects described above completely obliterate any gain from changing the contact point on the object ball, by itself. However, the approach angle to the object ball also changes, and this is where you get some gain since the cut angle is also affected by this. (If the cueball were at an infinite distance from the object ball you could contact it anywhere and the approach angle would be the same, although the cut angle would change.)

If you picture the distance between the old contact point (no english) and the new one (compensation for the altered throw), and form a triangle by drawing lines from them to the center of the cueball where it sits before the shot is executed, about twice the angle formed at the cueball is the amount of useful cut angle reduction you get. As is obvious, the closer the cueball is to the object ball, the larger this angle will be. The farther the cueball is from the object ball, the smaller this angle will be. It's also obvious that for typical distances it's very small, less than a degree. Changing a 30 degree cut angle into a 29 degree cut angle just doesn't do much to slow the cueball down. Some, definitely, but not much.

At least that's my understanding, I could be wrong. (I do have a program which calculates these things based on a little more rigorous logic than the above, but it could be wrong too.)

Jim

 

[Jal]

I think this is on topic, hopefully I'm not going off on a tangent. I have noticed, that I can draw the cue ball at a more acute angle when using inside english. I try to figure out why that is, but can not understand what is happening. Does anyone know why this happens?

Tracy

I feel as if I'm hogging this thread but since nobody else has responded...

With the inside english you should see slightly more throw. If you compensate exactly for it by hitting thinner, the cueball should actually travel a little faster down the tangent line, yielding a less acute draw angle. But the increase in speed from this is very slight. What might be happening is that you're not compensating and cheating the pocket. In this case the extra throw will slow the cueball down more in the tangential direction (but very little), producing a more acute draw angle. It will also take less draw spin off the cueball during impact. I'm assuming you're not sacrificing some draw spin for the inside english.

You may also be reducing the effective cut angle by swerving into the object ball. The approach angle is altered and this affects the cut angle.

Something to ponder, anyway. I can't think of anything else that would cause this. Maybe somebody else will.

Jim

 

[DaveK]

I must be missing something here. With a drag shot you can stop the cue ball, back it up a smidgeon, or let it follow a bit. With a slow rolled shot the cue ball must follow, and the amount of follow is porportional to the slow-rolled speed. In other words you cannot stop or back up a slow rolled cue ball. Furthermore, if you want only a very little bit of follow, the object ball may be too far from the pocket to slow roll it (you play the slow roll very slow to get an inch of follow, but the object ball doesn't make it to the pocket 'cause you hit it too slowly).

My table is far from level, so I play drag shots A LOT. Here is a shot that I find to be much easier with drag (or stun for that matter) than with a slow-roll :

CueTable Help

The idea is to leave the cue ball at position A.

Dave

<sorry for the funny Wei code picture, that red arrow DID start at the cue ball when I made the diagram>

 

[skins]

a $1 you can't make that one and hold the cue to point b .... lol

i can get within an inch shorter or longer of there. so..yes you can.

 

[skins]

For the reasons given in my last post, I really don't think there's much of anything to be gained with english.

When you're using enough outside to throw the object ball opposite of its usual throw direction, the cueball will be propelled by the same ball/ball friction a little faster along the tangent line after impact (instead of being slowed). Unless the balls are pretty close to each other, in which case you could soft stun into the object ball for maximum braking, the speed increase from the friction closely matches the reduction from the fuller hit. What one hand giveth, the other taketh away.

Jim

what you say is not true. it all depends on the cue ball's entrance angle of the shot, the amount of ball hit and the speed of the english rotation. i've been shooting shots like this for over 25 years and they're great to know when you need them.

 

[cmssuits]

3 Pages???

I can't believe I read this thread.....lol

Are stop shots necessary too?

 

[RSB-Refugee]

You may also be reducing the effective cut angle by swerving into the object ball. The approach angle is altered and this affects the cut angle.

I didn't think of this, it sounds reasonable.

Something to ponder, anyway. I can't think of anything else that would cause this. Maybe somebody else will.

If anyone has anything to add, I hope they will.

Tracy