Are tournament handicaps similar to welfare?

Well, welfare might be the wrong terminology. Folks that collect welfare don't work, thus, don't put up their own money to get in the box with someone else.

At least the HC players is putting up his cash, and going for it, with no help from anyone else. yeah, he gets a few games or so on the wire, but in the end, most of those tourneys end the same way. The better shooters win, and once in a while someone getting a HC claws his way to the top and/or cashes.

By the way, the HC tourneys seem to have a lot more players, thus a lot more cash in the pot. The good players like the bigger pots a lot better. So, it is almost a win/win for everyone in my eyes.
 
buckshotshoey said:
I'm willing to assume your son spent a lot of time playing with a handicap until his skill improved. He probably beat a lot of players better then him in the process. Tell him to quit whining and get over it. Here is a better option. Tell him to go play with Johnny Archer if he want a "no handicap" game.

Seems like a handicap bashing thread comes up once every few weeks. Don't like a handicap league, dont play.
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Wrong. He played short race and longer race smaller open tournaments for years and almost never won anything. He played very few tournaments where there were handicaps until the handicap tournaments got to be just about all that was out there.
By the way he does get into the larger open events that come to Atlanta and other surrounding areas. He rarely gets into the money and has been beat by Johnny Archer.

I myself have played in countless larger open events for the last 25 years and have only cashed in the lower money a few times. I have also won countless small open events.
 
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owll said:
I just stay away from handicapped tourneys. getting into a tourney where you hope handicap's are fair, and its run by a pool player? no thanks, ill just stick to the open tournaments, its a lot simpler.

note: my personal opinion, never should the lower rated player be the favorite in a match, handicaps should be set up so that lower rated player is just less of a underdog in the match...if lower rated players are consistently winning handicapped tournaments, its because those players are under rated.
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I agree with you. But the case is that usually the highest ranked players are the underdog. Another problem is that there are not enough local open events to play in. Handicap events are run all over the place on a weekly basis.

The most successful events I have seen were very short race events with no handicaps. That brings the luck factor in without punishing the good players.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Well, welfare might be the wrong terminology. Folks that collect welfare don't work, thus, don't put up their own money to get in the box with someone else.
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You might be right. Better terminology might be socialism or communism where everyone is made equal and there is no incentive to do better. The rocket scientist and the dish washers get paid the same.
 
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cueman said:
Wrong. He played short race and longer race smaller open tournaments for years and almost never won anything. He played very few tournaments where there were handicaps until the handicap tournaments got to be just about all that was out there.
By the way he does get into the larger open events that come to Atlanta and other surrounding areas. He rarely gets into the money and has been beat by Johnny Archer.

I myself have played in countless larger open events for the last 25 years and have only cashed in the lower money a few times. I have also won countless small open events.
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By the logic conveyed in your first post, he should be a stone cold killer because of that. But he's not.. why? Obviously playing even didn't do anything.
 
cueman said:
Wrong. He played short race and longer race smaller open tournaments for years and almost never won anything. He played very few tournaments where there were handicaps until the handicap tournaments got to be just about all that was out there.
By the way he does get into the larger open events that come to Atlanta and other surrounding areas. He rarely gets into the money and has been beat by Johnny Archer.

I myself have played in countless larger open events for the last 25 years and have only cashed in the lower money a few times. I have also won countless small open events.
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If he is good enough to beat Archer....even on Johnny's worst day, he should have no problem mopping the floor with the rest of us. I wouldn't have any problem entering an open tournament where I had virtually no chance to cash. Problem is these open tournaments are practically non existent in my area, and cost too much to enter. I'm just a poor working slob. Just can't afford it. If that was all there was in pool, I just couldn't play. I don't play pool for the money, its a game. I don't gamble. I play it because its fun. And its fun to improve. I practice hard at home. If someday I get good enough to enter an open event, I will. But I'm not going to bash open tournaments because I can't, won't, don't, or just dont like them.

I addition, open tournaments are selective. Someone who enters one that really has no business being there is looked down upon. I've read it here on AZ. When there is a limited number of spots in a tournament, and someone that might be of lesser talent takes one of those spots, they are ridiculed because they took a spot that should have went to someone more deserving. It was a thread on Turning Stone? Not sure.
 
cueman said:
You might be right. Better terminology might be socialism or communism where everyone is made equal and there is no incentive to do better. The rocket scientist and the dish washers get paid the same.
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well, maybe a bit of a stretch as well. Because there is no guarantee the HC player is getting paid, and I'm pretty sure the better players come out of top most of the time.

But then again, the good players don't have to play in HC tourneys but still do, so there must be an underlying reason, which is they will come out on top most often.

So, it appears good, mediocre and bangers like HC tourneys... those that don't, can play elsewhere.... I like them both to be honest.
 
Banks said:
By the logic conveyed in your first post, he should be a stone cold killer because of that. But he's not.. why? Obviously playing even didn't do anything.
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He is now thirty years old. But when he was a teenager he went many months without winning a tournament. He told us if he did not win before the end of that year he was quiting playing tournaments until he could run 50 balls in straight pool. Which was a game he rarely played. The end of the year came without him winning. He took second place in the last tournament of the year. So he quit for weeks and practiced straight pool until he could run 50 balls.

Then he came back and won sixteen 8 ball and 9 ball tournaments in a row. So he may have learned a little playing even. When he played league for a season he was ranked the highest APA has and almost never lost a match.

Also when he was an older teenager he started playing better than me on average, but was still losing to me more than he should. So I told him that from then on I was going to bare down on him as hard as I could until he got so tired of losing to me that he would get over his mental block. I had beat him for so long that he just expected me to win. But after a while he got over it and for years now he wins the majority of the time we meet in tournaments.
 
Tournament handicaps keep things challenging for good players. They would roll a lot of guys playing even, but if their handicap keeps going up they have to keep getting better to win.

It wouldn't be any fun if it was easy... Right?
 
cueman said:
He is now thirty years old. But when he was a teenager he went many months without winning a tournament. He told us if he did not win before the end of that year he was quiting playing tournaments until he could run 50 balls in straight pool. Which was a game he rarely played. The end of the year came without him winning. He took second place in the last tournament of the year. So he quit for weeks and practiced straight pool until he could run 50 balls.

Then he came back and won sixteen 8 ball and 9 ball tournaments in a row. So he may have learned a little playing even. When he played league for a season he was ranked the highest APA has and almost never lost a match.

Also when he was an older teenager he started playing better than me on average, but was still losing to me more than he should. So I told him that from then on I was going to bare down on him as hard as I could until he got so tired of losing to me that he would get over his mental block. I had beat him for so long that he just expected me to win. But after a while he got over it and for years now he wins the majority of the time we meet in tournaments.
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I was talking to a friend about that the other night, in a way. I think that getting beat down in tournaments does little for lower players. Those hours spent waiting and getting few real chances won't do nearly as much for improvement as the same amount of time playing solo or with a friend - continuous play gets more practice.
 
The people who refuse to or simply don't get any better under handicapped play wouldn't do so under heads up play,either. They're simply too lazy to improve.
 
Chris, it's amazing that your wife can clearly understand the simple problem here and her political view is a understandable common way to compare it to. Why reward the non effort. If you want to be better, work at it. The theory that handicap draws more people to a tournament or league play just does not work for me. Since the handicap has been developed years ago, I have not seen those people advance one bit. In fact, I've seen very good players hook up with handicappers so they have a chance to win a state tournament. I have asked our league operators to host a tournament ( even if it's only 16 teams) that is a non handicap tournament. Who is the best of the best on a certain day. The top players know that on any day, someone else or some other team would win it. I have been very lucky to shoot with only a couple of different teams in 30 years, but, we got the crap kicked out of us when we started and through the years, became a very strong team that was consistent in top 12 finishes which includes state champion ships and 7 state championships. Now days, we have to nearly play a perfect match against teams who can hardly hold a stick. One state championship only has a 15 game format and if we lose 4 games in the match without a table run, we may lose that match. Maybe the incentive for better players to even practice more would be that when signing up for the tournament, You pay a dollar for each point of handicap you get and it's added to the tournament prize fund. Now I would have extra incentive to take a day off work before a tournament and shoot like we did years ago. A team getting a 75 handicap and your at a 3 in a 15 game format would be very interesting.
In fact, I am going to send my idea to the league operator right now.
 
cueman said:
Would we even know who Johnny Archer or Earl Strickland were if they only played handicapped tournaments? No they would just be average. I can see league handicaps, but making it near impossible for the stronger players to win tournaments seems foolish. A league is a league and that is where handicaps belong. Pool is a sport and in most sports the best players win.

By the way if you are saying my son has no heart I have seen him many times with the other player several games ahead and on the hill and my son came back and won. I have also done so many times.

On the other hand I could say to the lower ranked players, get some heart and play without asking the better player to hand you the match. Play shorter races and feel good about yourself when you win.

I saw a tournament last for years with a single game race 8 ball event with a break and run pot played on one or two tables and had around 30 players every week.
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I don't know if that is true. I have played in a zillion handicapped tournaments and the best players almost always still win the tournaments. The handicaps usually just creates an illusion the weaker player has a chance but to actually win it does not usually turn out that way. The better players win regardless.
 
It's a conspiracy by the democrats to create a welfare system in pool. They just want to take money from the rich and give it to the poor. Watch out for the elections next week. If the democrats control both houses we will have 'pool obamacare". It will be mandatory handicaps designed to control the high cost of gambling.
 
kaznj said:
It's a conspiracy by the democrats to create a welfare system in pool. They just want to take money from the rich and give it to the poor. Watch out for the elections next week. If the democrats control both houses we will have 'pool obamacare". It will be mandatory handicaps designed to control the high cost of gambling.
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Since we're jumping sharks..

That option is still better than the conservative plan to shut down every hall in the country due to the damage it causes families and the illegal activities that surround the game.

I'd like to see the handicap rating of most saying these are bad. Pretty sure it would debunk the theory that playing even turns you into a good player.
 
Well around here it is a kind of welfare but it is welfare for the better players.

See, if the only weekly tournaments are scratch, only the top players show up and then there are no more tournaments. Instead, handicap tournaments insure that more people get in so the better players actually have a chance to win some money. Most of the time handicaps are not 100% so the better players retain an advantage.

I play in a handicapped 14.1 league that just finished a season. I usually spot the other players 30 to 70 points on 100 -- there is only one other player that I play even. I finished 12-11 in the season and I think nearly every loss was because I played poorly by my own standard. There were only a couple of matches where we both played well and I lost a close match. The handicaps are 100% in this league. I went 0-1 in the playoffs and got $140 back.

A scratch tournament format that has worked around here is the cheap buy-in short-race format, like $10 entry, race to 3, single-elimination 9 ball.
 
macguy said:
I don't know if that is true. I have played in a zillion handicapped tournaments and the best players almost always still win the tournaments. The handicaps usually just creates an illusion the weaker player has a chance but to actually win it does not usually turn out that way. The better players win regardless.
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I won a handicap tournament tonight.
That rated me a 6.
I beat a 7 6 to 4
I beat a 8 6 to 7
I beat a 5 6 to 2
I beat a 4 6 to 3
In the finals after I had won the winners bracket the 4 beat me 4 to 5
then I beat him 5 to 2 to win the event.
My son got beat by a 3 and he is an 8 in that room.

I was not the best there and would have got beat had I not been handicapped lower than the 8.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well around here it is a kind of welfare but it is welfare for the better players.

See, if the only weekly tournaments are scratch, only the top players show up and then there are no more tournaments. Instead, handicap tournaments insure that more people get in so the better players actually have a chance to win some money. Most of the time handicaps are not 100% so the better players retain an advantage.

I play in a handicapped 14.1 league that just finished a season. I usually spot the other players 30 to 70 points on 100 -- there is only one other player that I play even. I finished 12-11 in the season and I think nearly every loss was because I played poorly by my own standard. There were only a couple of matches where we both played well and I lost a close match. The handicaps are 100% in this league. I went 0-1 in the playoffs and got $140 back.

A scratch tournament format that has worked around here is the cheap buy-in short-race format, like $10 entry, race to 3, single-elimination 9 ball.
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That is what I have been saying. Short race non handicapped tournaments seem like the best idea.
 
to me the meaning of welfare is the same as a hand out. a handicap is not a hand out...it is some what of an equalizer.

we have a weekly handicapped tourny in our area that i play in occasionally. we always have the same 6-8 guys going down to the finals...the finishing order may vary from week to week but it always has the same guys at the top in the end.

even with the handicap it seems like i just donate to the pot every time. if it was not handicapped i would never play because it would be just a waste of money to go 2 and out every time.

i get what you guys are saying about winning a match 4-7 in a 4-8 race. i also get what you are saying about paying your dues . i am a decant c player on my good days and at 60 years old i dont see myself getting better to the point of hanging with b players or higher .

so either i play in a handicapped tourny where i have to play my best at my skill level vs my opponent playing his best at his skill level or just stay home and sit on the porch. i hate sitting at home on the porch.:grin:
 
First I'll say I don't think someone is doing their job right if you have 3's running out. One time getting a nice spread is one thing but more than 1 runout by a 3 shows a little sandbagging.

As to handicapped tournaments. Most are broke down by division in my area. We have Open and handicapped. The Open players are actually the ones that are trying to get the 2 combined right now because if most are under A they are playing the handicap and the ones that get only a few balls end up taking the tournament. You're right, a player can get hot and the handicap can help carry him through to a good finish but even a hot handicapped player is going to struggle to beat an A. The Open divisions normally end up with the same 8-10 guys playing for a small prize.
 
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