Are you willing to put in the time?

Originally Posted by book collector
I agree with a lot of what has been said so far but I also think there are at least 2 distinct types of players.
1. The ones with a natural talent, the first time they pick up a cue they make balls.
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lfigueroa said:
That's the interesting thing about TIO -- it takes a look at a lot of research that disproves the whole thing about natural, God-given talent, even citing examples like Mozart and Tiger Woods. When you look into the research, and even these extraordinary cases, you find out that the whole thing about natural talent is a myth. Check it out.

Lou Figueroa
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I understand different perspectives on the human mind and can see where a unique approach to trying to understand just why one individual becomes so much more effective than another while performing the same task begs to be addressed, but I am going to have to go with book collecter on this one.

There are just too many instances where it appears, without question that some inexplicable ability to perform a certain task, feat, etc.. can only be attributed to an already existing phenomena, an innate natural ability.

I find that one can explain that through hard work, practice and repetitive motions you can achieve a higher level. I do no disagree at all with that view, I only say that certain levels come much easier for some than others and in my opinion, can only be attributed to unatural ability.


Steve H
 
sjharr said:
I understand different perspectives on the human mind and can see where a unique approach to trying to understand just why one individual becomes so much more effective than another while performing the same task begs to be addressed, but I am going to have to go with book collecter on this one.

There are just too many instances where it appears, without question that some inexplicable ability to perform a certain task, feat, etc.. can only be attributed to an already existing phenomena, an innate natural ability.

I find that one can explain that through hard work, practice and repetitive motions you can achieve a higher level. I do no disagree at all with that view, I only say that certain levels come much easier for some than others and in my opinion, can only be attributed to unatural ability.


Steve H
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I'd say I pretty much agreed, up until I started reading the book :-)

He makes a compelling case, reviewing history, research on this subject, and well thought of cases of "naturals" like the fore-mentioned Mozart and Tiger. You should look into it.

Lou Figueroa
 
duckie said:
You mean something like this I posted awhile back:

"Since I like ghost ball, this is the way I got there. Back in the early 70's is when I started playing pool and back then there was no where near the availble info on pool as there is now. It was all trail and error at first but kinda grew into using ghost ball. I played that way and was not too bad, but was not very serious about playing. More social than anything. I faded from playing over time.

Back about 5 years or so, with the kids grown and time on my hands, I started playing again. Of course, I just used the old ways. The difference now is that I'm more serious than before, so I really want to improve. Read and tried fractional, parallel, light/refelection aiming systems, just about anything out there to help my quest. Even tried various banks systems.

I realized that I really didn't understand what was happening to make the cue ball actually hit the object ball to put it into a pocket. I had a general idea but nothing really solid.

So, on a sheet of paper, I drew two circles touching, one representing the OB, the other representing the GB. Where they touched is the contact point.I marked both centers on the paper. Then I drew a line from the contact point toward the direction of the pocket. Then I drew another circle somewhere on the paper to representing the CB with its centered marked. Ghost ball on paper.

Studying that drawing, I noticed a few things and kinda came up with some new terms, at least for me.

One is contact patch. That is the area where the ball meets the table and is also the center of all the circles. Thats what all balls roll on.

Another is direction of travel. That would be the direction a ball rolls. I like this because the word travel implies movement which is a big part of pool and needs to be thought about. This is also what the contact patch rolls on.

Looking at just the OB and GB circles, I noticed the OB and GB contact patches and contact point are on the same line. I then realized the direction of travel of the OB really started at the GB contact patch. Also, that the GB contact patch is always 1/2 ball from the edge of the OB, as long as both are the same size.

I then included the CB circle into the mix. First thing I noticed was that if I put the CB contact patch at the GB contact patch, the OB will go in. Second, was that no matter the cut angle, I had to put the CB contact patch at the GB patch. This is why I have a hard time believing a true 90 degree cut shot. Third,that the direction of travel of the CB after hitting a OB ball starts at the GB contact patch which also the starting point for the direction of travel for the OB.

Now, I added spin into the mix. I noticed that any hit on the center line of the CB circle is right toward the GB contact point and on the CB circle direction of travel to the GB contact patch. This also means that the cue stick should be on that same line. This is the heart of shot making.

This is why learning center ball is very important.

Since the GB contact patch is always 1/2 ball from the OB edge, adjusting for side spin is just a matter of rotating the GB contact patch in the proper direction aound the edge of the OB for the side spin used. How much? Thats where table time comes in. You just can't know all about english unless you hit alot of balls with all types of spin and on different tables and hw the same table and set of balls can play different depending oh how clean and the weather. This is the biggest reason that HAMB is so important.

Something I noticed about using the direction of travel line of the OB. That was how far the pocket is from the OB really doesn't matter. What matter was this, Knowing what the direction of travel of the OB would be for the type of shot being made and picking a point on that line about 4-6 inches in front of the OB. If you put the CB on the proper point on the table to cause the OB roll over that point, than the OB will go in.

Of course this was on paper, so time to go the the table. This is where I started my GB visualzation drill. At first I used the 8 and 1 ball and the CB. I'd place the 8 on the table as the OB and the 1 on the table as the GB and the CB somewhere else on the table like I did on paper.

I'd look at the 8/1 from a straight in shot point of view then move over to where the CB was, got in my stance as if to shoot, but didn't, but just looked the 1's contact patch. I would move the CB around or the 8/1 and repeat. It looked strange doing this drill, but I really didn't care. Drills are not always about hitting balls. This is also where the Arrow comes in handy cause you can actually have the arrow on the table and just aim at its point cause its point is the same as the GB contact patch.

Now, I have realized a few more things from this. One is the the tops of the OB and CB are opposite of the contact patch. At times I use the top of the CB to sight to the where the GB contact patch would be. Sometimes I use just the tops of the CB and OB to sight. Also, I noticed my eye pattern is more up and down, looking from where the CB is to where I want to put it on the table. Unlike looking from a contact point on the OB to a spot table to where the CB shoud be and then back to the CB and back to the spot on the table to the contact point of the object for needed adjust.

Sometimes I use the lights to reference where the GB contact patch is. Sometimes I use fractional to refernece where the GB contact is.
Sometimes I use parallel to refernece where the GB contact patch is.

But I aim for the GB contact patch. There have been times, I see where the OB direction of travel starts, which is the same spot of the GB contact patch, I put the CB on that spot on the table and never really consider the OB. But this comes and goes and takes time, practice to learn.

Seldom do I even think of the contact point. I just used it to help establish the start point for the OB direction to travel. Once I have that, its forgotten. I never think about trying to hit a contact point on the OB with a contact point on the CB. Its about putting the CB at the proper point on the table to make the OB go where I want it. I never try to "see" a GB.

Anyway, this is how I got to believe what I do about making shots in pool. I thought I had something new until I got Babe Cranfields "Straight Pool Bible" and read the chapter about the arrow. I had nothing new, but I felt great that my thinking was almost exactly like his. "

There's even a drawing I attached.


FWIW
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Sure, that's a good example of how a different approach to visualization, and breaking in down into very specific components, can help a player.

Lou Figueroa
never thought of it
that way before
 
greyghost said:
your quote from Lou is a great bit of advice....

here is more that very much applies to the idea of just hitting balls and "praticing" for hours and hours.....

I work offshore and this is what we say:

"Just because you been out here 20 years doesn't mean you have 20 years experience....remember you can put a retard out here for twenty years and he's going to have 1 years experience 20 times in a row.....

apply that to your game.......


time ain't sh*t without quality....I was a very competitive distance runner for quite some time and it works the same there too....

QUALITY of the work out will always TRUMP the Quantity of the workout....

If you can't focus to see the little details and intricacies that lou was talking about in those long hours of grueling pratice,they were just hours of screwing around....you see it, you apply it and you do it...if your not your not doing nothing but promoting the bad habits that you already have.

best wishes in your endeavor,
-Grey Ghost-
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That's it. I've know many, many players that play every day and still play about the same as they did 20 years ago. You really have to be paying attention, concentrating, and learning from each shot, or you're wasting your time as far as ever getting any better.

Lou Figueroa
 
Not true I was born a pro...just haven't developed yet!
Johnnyt said:
If you read the top players bio’s from the past and the present you’ll find that a very big percentage of them had family or relatives that owned a poolroom where they could practice for free 24/7. A lot had a Father that played pro speed and taught them early how to play well. Other top pros had a home table as a child with good players like father, relative, or good friend teach them how to play. If it was Dad’s or a relatives poolroom good players would take them under their wing because they saw the kid wanted to learn and had some talent, and some would teach and play with them to kiss the father or relative’s a$$ that owned the poolrooms for free time.

Most of the above started hanging around pro players at a very young age and gamble with them to judge their improvement.

You have to have natural talent but most pro spent 8 hours or more a day practicing and gambling for years before he turned pro. Johnnyt
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Neil said:
I think several picked up on a few key words, and missed a few other key words. I understand what you were doing, and to be perfectly honest, I envy you. It has been way too many years since I have been able to do that.:frown: And, I really wish I could 'get it back'. Time does fly when you can do that. I remember spending 14 hours in the pool room, and they kicked me out because they were closing. I had been there all day, and it felt like an hour!

The part some of you missed, is where he said he was OBSERVING what was happening. That means, paying attention to detail. He wasn't just focused on making the ball, but on how he hit it. Where did it go when he hit it here, ect. No worries about game loss from missing, but observing where his shot went, and filing it, so he could correct it next time. This actually is a VERY good way to practice. And, a way that is very hard to get students to actually do. Paying attention to detail of what you are actually doing, where you hit the cb and the ob, and what happens when hit there. And, where the cb goes afterwards. Attention to detail. Not necessarily attention on just did I make the ball, or did I miss it??
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Oh yeah -- the All-Dayer!

I remember back in college, USF had a student union with a pool room in the basement with probably a dozen GCs. I used to practice with a buddy -- who's name I cannot remember at the moment for the life of me. He had a real long last German sounding name that started with an "L" and was a fellow "student" at the university. We'd meet up to play regularly, but every once in a while, I would meet him when the pool room in the student union opened up, like maybe 11am on a Friday, and we'd both get this look in our eyes and finally one of us would say it: "An all-dayer."

It wasn't a question.

We'd blow off all of our classes, play straight pool and 9ball all day, AND THEN, after the student union closed, we'd drive 15 minutes down to Market Street, walk up the long narrow staircase and play at fabled Palace well into the morning.

Ah. Them was the days.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Oh yeah -- the All-Dayer!

I remember back in college, USF had a student union with a pool room in the basement with probably a dozen GCs. I used to practice with a buddy -- who's name I cannot remember at the moment for the life of me. He had a real long last German sounding name that started with an "L" and was a fellow "student" at the university. We'd meet up to play regularly, but every once in a while, I would meet him when the pool room in the student union opened up, like maybe 11am on a Friday, and we'd both get this look in our eyes and finally one of us would say it: "An all-dayer."

It wasn't a question.

We'd blow off all of our classes, play straight pool and 9ball all day, AND THEN, after the student union closed, we'd drive 15 minutes down to Market Street, walk up the long narrow staircase and play at fabled Palace well into the morning.

Ah. Them was the days.

Lou Figueroa
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Wow, I haven't heard the name Palace in a long time. Now there was a pool room.

I went from high school to jr. college. There were tables in the student union area also. I didn't make alot of classes, but the game sure improved.
 
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