Arizona Ratings Convertions to ABC System Discrepencies - Opinions Wanted
- Thread starter BigCat
- Start date
TheCaveman
Piling Rocks in My Cave
I apologize for this wall of text, but I'm just throwing my thoughts out on the subject. I don't mean any disrespect to any committee members and I've talked at length with Stuckart on the ratings committee. Anyway, here are my thoughts on the AZ ratings...and while it's a digression of the original topic, I'll still throw it out there.
If you want to skip everything I've written, the just read this part. The Ratings are fine, it's the standards used for rating people and they job of the committee to make sure people are getting bumped. Changing the system isn't going to help, but changing the way the system is implemented will.
First, we have to set the background for why they are ratings and handicaps to began with. In my opinion, this is to make tournaments fair and competitive for players of all skill levels and more importantly, to help room owners generate revenue through tournaments nights, catering to lower skilled players who may spend more money on the amenities of the pool room.
Hardest thing about the ratings is the disparity between say a 6 and an 8. Also 10-X, imo, was more created for when players who are that level play an 8,7,6 etc, not so much for say, a 10.
Take for example this scenario...
At an 8 and under handicap minus 3 9 ball tournament, a 6 goes to 3 and an 8 goes to 5.
The 6 wins the coins toss, breaks and gets a 9 ball break. Breaks again, runs 3 balls and rides the 9 or even may have a nice combo setup and now the score is 2-0. Now the 8 has to basically play like a 10 to have a chance of getting back into the game.
How many 8's are going to be able to step up, play flawless and stack a 5 pack on a 6? If they can do that, then they probably are not 8's.
Part of the problem, 6's who should be 7's are underrated because TD's don't want drive away their business. If someone can draw the cue ball, they shouldn't be 6's. Yet you can head to any number of rooms and play 6's that play 8 speed all day long. Yet they never get bumped because to bump them would drive away the business.
Now I don't think there should be a normalization of all the ratings, but I think Ratings committee officials needs to get honest about their players and have standards. Is the answer to create more ratings that are deeper and dial in the skill cap better? Maybe, but it really is going to fall on the committee to do the right thing and bump people. Imo, I think they should bring tournament data (tournament brackets, sign-up lists or something) to backup claims but to also give other committee members a chance to look at the data and bump people. Also, committee members need to be clear on what each ranking means and have some sort of qualification for being able to determine a person's ranking. For example, people who aren't 10's aren't going to be able to understand what playing 10 speed is like. They have never been at that level and they can't understand that type of play because that type of play is experienced. This is not a knock on those committee membes, but how can someone rate another player when they've not played at that level, ever. Dick Breeze and other old timers have seen a lot of pool so they'd know, but again, what is the qualification for being able to be the end all, be all authority on some one's game? That is why I suggest there be some sort of standards that are set for people to be on the committee and the stanadards for the different rating be set and used. And these standard may very well be there, and if so, those standard needs to be followed. The determining factor in getting bumped can't be how many tournaments a person wins or how many times they've cashed, its supposed to be based on Skill Level and knowledge of the game.
I know Jerry has worked on doing some things via the electronic highway. What if it was a requirement that all the TD's who wanted to be part of any AZ ratings had to submit their tournament numbers so that people could see if a 6 is really playing 6 speed, or is underrated and robing people?
I don't think there is a problem with the current ranking, the problem lies in that people don't get moved up as they should and this is due to the business side of running tournaments, which, we probably will never get away from either.
The way I see it, the ratings are really there to create a tournament environment that is fair. 6 and under, 7 and under and 8 and under will draw more players and therefore increase Room Revenue over Open's. Thus, you will never get away from some type of ratings system. Not too mention, people want a chance to win and lets face it, most people want easy money and don't want to work to get better. The lack-a-daisy bumping of players creates a crutch. Why get better if they can win as 6's? The 6 has no incentive to get better if all they want to do is win tournaments. The ratings committee needs to make sure that they bump people, even if it's a bit before that person has actually reached that level to push people to want to do better and get better. But again, I'll say, this may never happen due to the business end of running tournaments. Room owners, for the most part, run tournaments to draw in business to their room. Thus there is a disconnect.
Anyway, the point though, I guess, is that the ratings system is fine, and should be done fairly. Because in the end, the guys and gals putting in the time at the table are the ones getting screwed and the ones that stay under the radar or are buddies with Room Owners never get bumped. The change that I would suggest, is that standards be readily available to everyone so everyone knows what a 6 is, a 7, etc. And then those standards need to be followed dilligently by TD's and Committee members.
If you want to skip everything I've written, the just read this part. The Ratings are fine, it's the standards used for rating people and they job of the committee to make sure people are getting bumped. Changing the system isn't going to help, but changing the way the system is implemented will.
First, we have to set the background for why they are ratings and handicaps to began with. In my opinion, this is to make tournaments fair and competitive for players of all skill levels and more importantly, to help room owners generate revenue through tournaments nights, catering to lower skilled players who may spend more money on the amenities of the pool room.
Hardest thing about the ratings is the disparity between say a 6 and an 8. Also 10-X, imo, was more created for when players who are that level play an 8,7,6 etc, not so much for say, a 10.
Take for example this scenario...
At an 8 and under handicap minus 3 9 ball tournament, a 6 goes to 3 and an 8 goes to 5.
The 6 wins the coins toss, breaks and gets a 9 ball break. Breaks again, runs 3 balls and rides the 9 or even may have a nice combo setup and now the score is 2-0. Now the 8 has to basically play like a 10 to have a chance of getting back into the game.
How many 8's are going to be able to step up, play flawless and stack a 5 pack on a 6? If they can do that, then they probably are not 8's.
Part of the problem, 6's who should be 7's are underrated because TD's don't want drive away their business. If someone can draw the cue ball, they shouldn't be 6's. Yet you can head to any number of rooms and play 6's that play 8 speed all day long. Yet they never get bumped because to bump them would drive away the business.
Now I don't think there should be a normalization of all the ratings, but I think Ratings committee officials needs to get honest about their players and have standards. Is the answer to create more ratings that are deeper and dial in the skill cap better? Maybe, but it really is going to fall on the committee to do the right thing and bump people. Imo, I think they should bring tournament data (tournament brackets, sign-up lists or something) to backup claims but to also give other committee members a chance to look at the data and bump people. Also, committee members need to be clear on what each ranking means and have some sort of qualification for being able to determine a person's ranking. For example, people who aren't 10's aren't going to be able to understand what playing 10 speed is like. They have never been at that level and they can't understand that type of play because that type of play is experienced. This is not a knock on those committee membes, but how can someone rate another player when they've not played at that level, ever. Dick Breeze and other old timers have seen a lot of pool so they'd know, but again, what is the qualification for being able to be the end all, be all authority on some one's game? That is why I suggest there be some sort of standards that are set for people to be on the committee and the stanadards for the different rating be set and used. And these standard may very well be there, and if so, those standard needs to be followed. The determining factor in getting bumped can't be how many tournaments a person wins or how many times they've cashed, its supposed to be based on Skill Level and knowledge of the game.
I know Jerry has worked on doing some things via the electronic highway. What if it was a requirement that all the TD's who wanted to be part of any AZ ratings had to submit their tournament numbers so that people could see if a 6 is really playing 6 speed, or is underrated and robing people?
I don't think there is a problem with the current ranking, the problem lies in that people don't get moved up as they should and this is due to the business side of running tournaments, which, we probably will never get away from either.
The way I see it, the ratings are really there to create a tournament environment that is fair. 6 and under, 7 and under and 8 and under will draw more players and therefore increase Room Revenue over Open's. Thus, you will never get away from some type of ratings system. Not too mention, people want a chance to win and lets face it, most people want easy money and don't want to work to get better. The lack-a-daisy bumping of players creates a crutch. Why get better if they can win as 6's? The 6 has no incentive to get better if all they want to do is win tournaments. The ratings committee needs to make sure that they bump people, even if it's a bit before that person has actually reached that level to push people to want to do better and get better. But again, I'll say, this may never happen due to the business end of running tournaments. Room owners, for the most part, run tournaments to draw in business to their room. Thus there is a disconnect.
Anyway, the point though, I guess, is that the ratings system is fine, and should be done fairly. Because in the end, the guys and gals putting in the time at the table are the ones getting screwed and the ones that stay under the radar or are buddies with Room Owners never get bumped. The change that I would suggest, is that standards be readily available to everyone so everyone knows what a 6 is, a 7, etc. And then those standards need to be followed dilligently by TD's and Committee members.
Last edited:
OK well Jude is just going to have to wait then,lol,or maybe next friday they can play some.I think having the event at Bullshooters will be awesome,its a bigger room.Prince said:
I think they may be moving some tables around, as well as bringing in some bleachers for the finals.Fast Lenny said:OK well Jude is just going to have to wait then,lol,or maybe next friday they can play some.I think having the event at Bullshooters will be awesome,its a bigger room.
Dennis
www.desertclassictour.com
Thats great Dennis,seems like its going to be a good one,I hope you can work with them more on doing events,even though its alot farther away from me,its a nice room.Prince said:
agt said:
not sure who you are or what your rated.
AGT, I figured out who you are..Didn't we meet in vegas? I will play but race to 20 should at least be a 250 bet per set dont you thinnk? so far I have had 6 offers do to my post. I will have to take the best one in order..............
Ok, just so we don't lose track of all these challenges, here is what I got so far:
Prince v. Bobby Emmons
berniep v. Bobby Emmons
Prince v. berniep
JimmyM v. berniep
BigCat v. Roger Long
BigCat v. BRKNRUN
brknrun v. <winner of BRKNRUN/BigCat>
Chucklez65 v. Roger Long
Chucklez65 v. <insert 9 rated player here>
AzHousePro v. bfdlad
Fast Lenny v. grindz
Fast Lenny v. justabanger
Bad Company v. agt
Bad Company v. Fast Lenny
CocoboloCowboy v. BVal <-- virtual challenge/match
Did I miss anyone or any other challenges. I think I might have to throw another one out there. Dennis, are you up for a challenge match against me? All around format - 14.1, 8 Ball, 10 Ball. We always seem to have these super close matches, so I thought it would be fun to do.
BigCat v. Prince
If anyone else wants to challenge someone, post it up. This thread has garnered more action in Arizona than any other thread I've seen.
Ray
Prince v. Bobby Emmons
berniep v. Bobby Emmons
Prince v. berniep
JimmyM v. berniep
BigCat v. Roger Long
BigCat v. BRKNRUN
brknrun v. <winner of BRKNRUN/BigCat>
Chucklez65 v. Roger Long
Chucklez65 v. <insert 9 rated player here>
AzHousePro v. bfdlad
Fast Lenny v. grindz
Fast Lenny v. justabanger
Bad Company v. agt
Bad Company v. Fast Lenny
CocoboloCowboy v. BVal <-- virtual challenge/match
Did I miss anyone or any other challenges. I think I might have to throw another one out there. Dennis, are you up for a challenge match against me? All around format - 14.1, 8 Ball, 10 Ball. We always seem to have these super close matches, so I thought it would be fun to do.
BigCat v. Prince
If anyone else wants to challenge someone, post it up. This thread has garnered more action in Arizona than any other thread I've seen.
Ray
Jimmy M. said:
Look pinchioutaline Jr. This biking thing has gone to far this time, I have strippers to feed and this gay biking thing is getting in the way
This should be fun if we can get it all setup,I really want to see Bobby and Dennis play to be honest.BigCat said:
Sure, now that my studying is over, i have some more free time. I'll chat with you next Saturday at the next tour stop.BigCat said:
Dennis
www.desertclassictour.com
That match-up with me is doubtful because I'm not interested in playing one-pocket as part of the package. I'd play something like 10-ball, 8-ball, and straight-pool, and I'm not specifically challenging Bernie either. Since this thread is all about ratings, if there's a 10-1 that wants to do something like that, I'm in!
BigCat said:
Fast Lenny said:This should be fun if we can get it all setup,I really want to see Bobby and Dennis play to be honest.
Hmmmm....One methodical player and one that is.....well....not so methodical.
My Vbookie prediction is the aniti methodical player goes on tilt and plays under his top level of play.
I will let you all figure out which one is which....:wink:
We might have to bet a Baconator if they are playing 9 or 10 ball,it will be a good matchup! :thumbup:BRKNRUN said:
Jimmy M. said:
The original topic of this thread got lost like on page 4
, so don't worry about that. If you want to play someone, just play. Who cares about ratings. Both of my challenge matches so far (that were NOT initiated by me) are between myself and 8/9's. So I don't think everyone has to match up with someone their exact speed/rating.If no one will step up to play you, then I will. I know I would be the underdog, but I would love the chance to finally match up against you in some 10 ball on a 9 ft. In fact, I would cancel my challenge to Prince in order to play you sometime in the near future. Plus, like you, I pretty much despise one pocket.
How's this:
14.1 - Race to 200
8 Ball - Race to 15/20
10 Ball - Race to 20/30
Ray
Edit: I just realized that no one has done a one set challenge, yet. Everyone is getting caught up in the all around mentality (including me). So if you want to just do something like a race to 50 in 10 ball, I'm game. I do also realize that you are the best straight pool player in Arizona and surrounding states, so it may not be much of a challenge for you to play me in 14.1.
Last edited: