Arrested for Ivory sale
- Thread starter eddiethelock
- Start date
200 grams is >7 ounces of ivory….my cues weigh 18.5 oz….there isn’t 7 ounces of ivory in my cues.
Let me help you since apparently math isn’t your forte or law for that matter. 28.35 grams = 1 ounce.
My cues are flat faced so there’s more wood than with a piloted joint & several don’t have weight bolts.
That amounts to 7.06 ozs of ivory and that means almost 40% of my cue would have to be elephant
ivory. That’s hardly the case so I hope that clears up the de minimus math calculation for you, if it helps
Additionally, the ivory in my cues does not account for more than 50% of my cue’s volume or value either.
The de minimus exemption is spelled out but trying to familiarize you is overly challenging if you are not
adequately acquainted with the laws and regulations regarding ivory. Recollectioncues.com……I encourage
you to take the time to read the excellent explanation about ivory. Sorry to report you are wrong and I’m not.
DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Yeah, but it must have been imported into the US before 1990, too. Got proof of that on your 2016 cue?
You really do not know much about law. Taking a cue somewhere, like Vegas, does not constitute intent to sell.It's funny that you are so into ivory and believe you know the laws, but couldn't find what I found in ten minutes of searching.
You need to be able to provide CITES permits for the original source of the ivory in order to sell. That means that you need to go to the makers and get their original paperwork...which they probably didn't get from their suppliers, who may or may not have gotten it from their poachers.
It's pretty clear that when you take a cue to vegas to sell, you are violating the federal interstate commerce law.
None of your cues listed in your signature were built before 1990, which appears to be the relevant CITES date.
Elephant Ivory FAQs | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service
These FAQs provide guidance on how to legally buy, sell, or otherwise trade in elephant ivory to ensure that our domestic markets do not contribute to the decline of elephants in the wild. It’s important to note that regulations do not restrict personal possession of ivory.www.fws.gov
To be guilty of a crime, it must be proven by the prosecutor it was always your intention to sell your cue by going
to Las Vegas. Without conclusive, convincing proof, you are always innocent. And intention is only something the
individual committing the act knows. Haven’t you watched Law & Order? You must prove intention. Well, taking a
cue to Vegas to play in a tournament or just watch APA nationals or some other event is customary and consistent
for any pool aficionado or tournament entrant to do. And it just so happened while I was there for other reasons, I
decided to find out how much my cue was worth so I presented it to some others for valuation. As I gained info
about my cue, I learned it was worth a lot of money, like my Prewitt and Scruggs cues. I thought about what I could
use that money for and subsequently decided to sell the cues while I was there. It wasn’t the reason for going to LV.
I will never be found guilty……neither the judge, jury or prosecutor can know what I was thinking or intended. They must have proof and you can’t prove that. Heck, look at the years of postings I have on this Forum attesting to my adherence to the ivory restrictions while none the less condemning the nearsightedness of the law. Nope, I would never be found guilty as you apparently think. Now I have strong suspicions you’re talking out of your body’s excrement region and hate being corrected.
p.s. Before replying, at least be curious enough to read the Recollection Cues explanation which is excellent.
BTW, the attachment in this post is not what I was referring to. Go to their website and become educated.
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DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Selling it proves intent to sell and interstate commerce.
You are really not equipped to debate this so I’ll stop at this point……there is such a thing as a spontaneous, impulsive thought.
DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Hey bud, I'm just reading what the link I provided said. I'm sure you're such a peach that nobody will look at all your history of collecting ivory and think, 'this guy is one of the reasons elephants are endangered.'
DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Just to let you in on a little secret, I don't care whether I'm equipped for this argument. I don't care if I'm correct. I think your attitude about cues is hilarious. I'm finding that your attitude on ivory is just as laughable.
If you were ever suspected of wrongdoing as far as ivory is concerned, you'd better hope they don't link your az account to you. If they do, they'll find every reason they can to prosecute.
Well, you are entitled to your thinking and attitude toward me or others like minded as myself.
I can’t comment about your cue making skills since I never heard or seen anyone that played
with one of your cues. I’’d like to think you mastered your craft but your comments give me doubt.
I’ve recited and posted the regulation, explained what I learned first hand from CA Fish&Wildlife,
urged you to read Tom Watters’ composition about elephant ivory that pretty much dismisses
what you keep espousing without any substantiation or evidence, other than your thoughts on it.
Time will tell. In fact, now I’m curious to find out what my cues might be worth. I think I’ll start with
my Ed Prewitt cue. It really plays terrific & I’m not a fan of flame veneers generally but his version
was just different, at least to my eye. It is the heaviest cue I carry in my case. Butt is 14.5 ozs &
Shafts are 4.1 & 4.2 ozs. Of course, ivory ferrules and a 3/8 x10 flat ivory joint, elephant ear wrap.
FYI, Ed. wasn’t able to complete two shafts I ordered in early 2016 before CA’s ban took effect.
He asked me if I still wanted the shafts but I declined. I wish the Barnhart Roasted Maple Shaft I
got from Martin (Superior Cues) used ivory but it is what it is. Nonetheless, that shaft plays amazing.
I think Martin might still have some. Cory only makes radial pin shafts & that’s what my Scruggs is.
I can’t comment about your cue making skills since I never heard or seen anyone that played
with one of your cues. I’’d like to think you mastered your craft but your comments give me doubt.
I’ve recited and posted the regulation, explained what I learned first hand from CA Fish&Wildlife,
urged you to read Tom Watters’ composition about elephant ivory that pretty much dismisses
what you keep espousing without any substantiation or evidence, other than your thoughts on it.
Time will tell. In fact, now I’m curious to find out what my cues might be worth. I think I’ll start with
my Ed Prewitt cue. It really plays terrific & I’m not a fan of flame veneers generally but his version
was just different, at least to my eye. It is the heaviest cue I carry in my case. Butt is 14.5 ozs &
Shafts are 4.1 & 4.2 ozs. Of course, ivory ferrules and a 3/8 x10 flat ivory joint, elephant ear wrap.
FYI, Ed. wasn’t able to complete two shafts I ordered in early 2016 before CA’s ban took effect.
He asked me if I still wanted the shafts but I declined. I wish the Barnhart Roasted Maple Shaft I
got from Martin (Superior Cues) used ivory but it is what it is. Nonetheless, that shaft plays amazing.
I think Martin might still have some. Cory only makes radial pin shafts & that’s what my Scruggs is.
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The Feds tell you to check with your state laws in regards to OWNING and SELLING ivory products, items that existed prior to the ban ONLY. Every other regulation about usage, import and export is FEDERAL. Again, I have confirmation of this when I went through them for a de minimus letter format approval.
This is the KEY sentence in the de minimus rule... pay attention...
(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before July 6, 2016.<<
This line FORBIDS any working of ivory after the date. It is NOT regulated by the state for usage, anyone who repeats that is incorrect. If you were to sell an item made after this date it CANNOT qualify under the de minimus exception. It is right there in the wording. This is why I say that you cannot twist these to fit a narrative, because YOU want it.
The de minimus exception is for ALL interstate sales, not governed by "other" state laws.
JV
This is the KEY sentence in the de minimus rule... pay attention...
(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before July 6, 2016.<<
This line FORBIDS any working of ivory after the date. It is NOT regulated by the state for usage, anyone who repeats that is incorrect. If you were to sell an item made after this date it CANNOT qualify under the de minimus exception. It is right there in the wording. This is why I say that you cannot twist these to fit a narrative, because YOU want it.
The de minimus exception is for ALL interstate sales, not governed by "other" state laws.
JV
What a Beaut!! Nice axe my friend.
sudocrushms
Well-known member
Seconded.
I honestly don't think I've ever handled real ivory in my life and would definitely prefer not to. Just not worth it.
Some readers just are narrow minded and want to steadfastly remain opposed to ivory in pool cues regardless of facts.
Here is the issue. The vast majority of these folks don’t take the time to do their own research on the subject. Instead, they seem more inclined to rubber stamp the remarks made by others also misinformed or whom misunderstand the facts.
Nonetheless, everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. I just find it disheartening when they either misstate the
truth or twist it to justify, and defend, their erroneous statements about ivory. Occasionally they get it right like you will
get into trouble selling cues with ivory if you live in a state with a ivory ban. However, if you follow the law and abide by
it, you can buy and sell cues all year long. It just requires a travel to another state without any ban to conduct business.
I challenge anyone to cite a current, genuine example where someone sold a cue while in a different state and got into
trouble with either the Feds or their own state. I think it is interesting that a very prominent cue dealer specializing in high
end cues, many of which use ivory, advertises on their website they sell cues with ivory and took the time to spell out in
detail on his website the real facts behind the ivory ban. Furthermore, there hasn’t been any legal problems either.
My recommendation is do your own research, Don’t believe folks that talk without evidence and do not understand
the ban. I have no personal animosity toward anyone that condemns using ivory in pool cues. I believe they’re entitled
to think and feel anyway they want. However, misinformation and lies are never permissible to promote and frankly, it’s
become increasingly difficult to figure which one actually applies when the genuine facts have been presented. I guess
it’s like politics today in America. If you don’t agree with what someone says, come up with your own alternate facts.
Here is the issue. The vast majority of these folks don’t take the time to do their own research on the subject. Instead, they seem more inclined to rubber stamp the remarks made by others also misinformed or whom misunderstand the facts.
Nonetheless, everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. I just find it disheartening when they either misstate the
truth or twist it to justify, and defend, their erroneous statements about ivory. Occasionally they get it right like you will
get into trouble selling cues with ivory if you live in a state with a ivory ban. However, if you follow the law and abide by
it, you can buy and sell cues all year long. It just requires a travel to another state without any ban to conduct business.
I challenge anyone to cite a current, genuine example where someone sold a cue while in a different state and got into
trouble with either the Feds or their own state. I think it is interesting that a very prominent cue dealer specializing in high
end cues, many of which use ivory, advertises on their website they sell cues with ivory and took the time to spell out in
detail on his website the real facts behind the ivory ban. Furthermore, there hasn’t been any legal problems either.
My recommendation is do your own research, Don’t believe folks that talk without evidence and do not understand
the ban. I have no personal animosity toward anyone that condemns using ivory in pool cues. I believe they’re entitled
to think and feel anyway they want. However, misinformation and lies are never permissible to promote and frankly, it’s
become increasingly difficult to figure which one actually applies when the genuine facts have been presented. I guess
it’s like politics today in America. If you don’t agree with what someone says, come up with your own alternate facts.
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DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Hudson Valley Man Admits Selling $70K In Elephant Ivory Pool Cues, DA Says
A Hudson Valley man has been convicted for his part in the illegal commercialization of elephant ivory worth more than $70,000.Rockland County resident Kenneth Kerner, age 59, of Clarkstown, was convicted on Thursday, Feb. 22 after pleadin…
dailyvoice.com
I'm sure a degree from Law & Order University will poke holes all through this.
Pre-ban ivory is 1978 and cue makers get that from companies licensed and regulated to sell that ivory.
All the cue maker needs is sales records for how they procured ivory used in their cues when the source
is licensed by the federal and state agencies to sell pre-ban ivory. Now those firms must substantiate how
they acquired their ivory which is pre-1978. Folks, visit Recollection Cues website. It is helpful education.
You’ll not only view the best collection of custom cues for sale anywhere but also become better educated
about elephant ivory. Tom has the Nitti Navajo Cue on his site and it’s a cue I’ve wanted a long time. In fact,
here’s a few that I’d love to own…….Eddie Cohen’s Doom Cue (Color of Money), The Golden Tascarella,
Steve Klein’s Texas Bushka, Ernie Guitterez Serpent Cue. The ivory ban was a good thing in that it saved me
money I’d definitely be spending on getting my dream Hercek cue or one of the aforementioned gorgeous cues.
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And this fellow couldn’t sell a cue with ivory if he went to New Jersey. NewHudson Valley Man Admits Selling $70K In Elephant Ivory Pool Cues, DA Says
A Hudson Valley man has been convicted for his part in the illegal commercialization of elephant ivory worth more than $70,000.Rockland County resident Kenneth Kerner, age 59, of Clarkstown, was convicted on Thursday, Feb. 22 after pleadin…
I'm sure a degree from Law & Order University will poke holes all through this.
York and NJ were the first two states that banned ivory sales and CA was the
3rd state (July 1, 2016). He got what he deserved by breaking the law or else
he was too lazy to do it the legal way or too stupid to know that he still could.
I even had Bob Owen and Jerry Rauenzahn sign & date my cues and also dated progress photos of my cues being
built, invoices and payment history. Once I learned in late 2015 the California legislature passed a ivory ban, I quickly
proceeded to learn as much as possible since my cues were scheduled for completion 3 months after the ban took
effect. I met with CA Fish & Wildlife three times, spoke with officials at the Department of Interior and one of my state
Senators about the nuances of the law. I did my level best to establish a clear and documented provenance trail for
my pool cues. Since I’ll never take my cues out of the USA, I haven’t any need for getting a CITES certificate and the
law plainly states possession of ivory is legal so I’m on solid ground. If you ever have doubts, you can rely on pool cue
professionals like Joe, Mark K., Tom Watters, Martin Bick, etc. to be on top of any legal issues involving pool cues.
That may be true for most, but I wouldn't mind picking up a couple shafts with that cherry on top!!
That's what I like and have used mostly over the years. Not to mention I love the hit from a ferrule made out of the good stuff. Don't need inlays or joints, just ferrules, with a Rock Hard Tip.
Happy Camper.
I think you got it right…….I can live with a wood to wood joint versus piloted steel if I can’t get a flat ivory version.
But nothing…..and I do mean everything else……plays like an ivory ferrule. Acoustically, esthetically and functionally
it plays better than any substitute. I have two ivory ferrules in my miscellaneous cue components. I had Jerry Rauenzahn send me two before the ivory ban kicked in. I can have a cue maker use them for any shaft I wanted built, or a new cue. If a cue maker uses my materials I provide at no charge to the cue maker, they could use the ivory and not violate the CA ivory ban. There is no ivory being sold nor purchased, the monetary payment is for the cue maker’s time and the non-ivory materials used to build a cue shaft. In hindsight, I wish I had bought a 1/2 dozen ferrules but Obladi Oblada, at least I got two.
But nothing…..and I do mean everything else……plays like an ivory ferrule. Acoustically, esthetically and functionally
it plays better than any substitute. I have two ivory ferrules in my miscellaneous cue components. I had Jerry Rauenzahn send me two before the ivory ban kicked in. I can have a cue maker use them for any shaft I wanted built, or a new cue. If a cue maker uses my materials I provide at no charge to the cue maker, they could use the ivory and not violate the CA ivory ban. There is no ivory being sold nor purchased, the monetary payment is for the cue maker’s time and the non-ivory materials used to build a cue shaft. In hindsight, I wish I had bought a 1/2 dozen ferrules but Obladi Oblada, at least I got two.
