None of that matters. The ivory can't be proven as pre-CITES, and if you ever sell the cues, you're breaking the law
Yeah yeah, you're leaving them all to your kids, but then you're just throwing the grenade to them.
Arrested for Ivory sale
- Thread starter eddiethelock
- Start date
None of that matters. The ivory can't be proven as pre-CITES, and if you ever sell the cues, you're breaking the law
Yeah yeah, you're leaving them all to your kids, but then you're just throwing the grenade to them.
Now you are just sounding silly. I can go to Las Vegas for a trip. Bring my cues and sell or trade every cue I brought.
If I traded or purchased another cue, I can bring that home happily and legally. You must think the ivory ban is like a
sentence from a court and it follows you whenever you go outside of the state. It doesn’t and only applies to doing or attempting to do business within the geographical boundaries of the state. Your residency doesn’t disqualify you from
conducting business in another jurisdiction. As an individual, I don’t have any licensing requirements or restrictions that
may limit activities. Now a cue dealer licensed in California might have restrictions but regardless, I’m not and free to do
what I please when outside the state of California. Possession of ivory is not against the law which CA Fish & Wildilfe confirmed to me, as well as my ability to sell my pool cues if I am out of the state. I cannot conduct business inside CA.
Federal Law supercedes State Law, and the Feds uphold the CITES ban. If they want to arrest you for selling ivory, they will. "Commercialization" is a very broad word. Piss off the Feds and sell a pool cue - you'll find out
Ernie Gutierrez didn't get popped by California State Police
But ok, you're the expert on all things, good luck
You don't know how the game is played....
They change the rules for you and don't abide by any themselves. Only a fool goes up against a federal prosecutor without a lawyer so even if you "win" you are out a bunch for legal fees. Look at the conviction rate for federal prosecutions where 98% of cases result in a guilty pleas and only 0.4 % go to court.
I had a IRS agent and Homeland Security agent on my doorstep looking to question me. Fortunately I was not home. I never met with them, even though I absolutely wasn't guilty of what they were investigating. Last thing you do is speak to them. I retained a lawyer 2k....then paid 10k for him to handle the whole case if they opted to prosecute. I had one of the best lawyers in town who knew and communicated with the district federal prosecutors. We submitted a statement, he made a few phone calls and sat back....they never charged me.
Moral of the story is...You don't ever give anyone the rope to hang you.
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He don't know what he don't know....Federal Law supercedes State Law, and the Feds uphold the CITES ban. If they want to arrest you for selling ivory, they will. "Commercialization" is a very broad word. Piss off the Feds and sell a pool cue - you'll find out
Ernie Gutierrez didn't get popped by California State Police
But ok, you're the expert on all things, good luck
The Feds don't play by the rules.
I had a page typed out.. but it doesn't matter. People in pool will distort and reword or change word definition to convince themselves they are in the right. You cannot fix stupid, this is a fact. There is so much incorrect information in this thread it is beyond comprehension. To simplify the situation, here is a link to the best explanation given by people who actually used to use ivory like cuemakers. Simplified ivory explanationFederal Law supercedes State Law, and the Feds uphold the CITES ban. If they want to arrest you for selling ivory, they will. "Commercialization" is a very broad word. Piss off the Feds and sell a pool cue - you'll find out
Ernie Gutierrez didn't get popped by California State Police
But ok, you're the expert on all things, good luck
I do not agree with the premise of the rules in place, but they are what they are. I took a different approach, and it seems to be working. You can fight it, or you can figure it out. I chose the latter.
JV
A good friend of mine has his dad’s southwest that he bought over 30 years ago. Pre franklins death. It’s beautiful. Loaded with ivory. One of the fanciest southwests I’ve ever seen. South west cues said they could easily get a buyer over Seas for 25k to 30k but he’s afraid to sell it because of this.
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here‘s a link from when he asked me to get a value back in 2011. It also had ivory joint protectors with southwest engraved in them as well.
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pre franklin southwest.. Trying to get a value?
This is a friends cue. He's really interested in finding out what the value is in this rough market. He's had it since new. He picked it up from Franklin Just days before his death and actually was able to attend the funeral while he was out there. I don't know a lot about south wests but I've...
forums.azbilliards.com
here‘s a link from when he asked me to get a value back in 2011. It also had ivory joint protectors with southwest engraved in them as well.
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A little detail: Legally the police are allowed to lie when questioning someone. The person being questioned isn't. This imbalance of power is why I don't have shit to say without an attorney present. Also, if a tape is being made, I set my tape recorder next to theirs. That dropped a few jaws. "You record, I record." These cases ran years and it was damned handy to review what I said years ago when going into another deposition, meeting, or in a courtroom. I was a witness or expert witness a few times too. Best to do your homework and have your ducks in a row.
Not quite the same but I was deposed a half dozen times or more in a couple of civil cases. I quickly learned not to make an unnecessary sound or aside. It wasn't transposed when others did it, every sound you make is. You say uh or ah it is a matter of record. When you are the only one they are doing that to it can make you sound like a moron. Too, side conversations by the lawyers aren't transposed. If you say anything in reply it is. Can make it seem you are making strange comments when they are out of context. I also paused before answering every question, something they hate! Ask me my name. You get a pause. Also, don't answer more than you are asked.
Many a person has hung themselves trying to appear cooperative. Shut up! Answer only what you are asked and as briefly as possible. Always remember the first thing I said here. They are allowed to lie, you aren't! Crazy as it seems that is the law.
Hu
Not quite the same but I was deposed a half dozen times or more in a couple of civil cases. I quickly learned not to make an unnecessary sound or aside. It wasn't transposed when others did it, every sound you make is. You say uh or ah it is a matter of record. When you are the only one they are doing that to it can make you sound like a moron. Too, side conversations by the lawyers aren't transposed. If you say anything in reply it is. Can make it seem you are making strange comments when they are out of context. I also paused before answering every question, something they hate! Ask me my name. You get a pause. Also, don't answer more than you are asked.
Many a person has hung themselves trying to appear cooperative. Shut up! Answer only what you are asked and as briefly as possible. Always remember the first thing I said here. They are allowed to lie, you aren't! Crazy as it seems that is the law.
Hu
Reminds me of Ron White,
Biloxi Boy
Man With A Golden Arm
God's Truth
He got popped for breaking a federal law…..international shipping that has more severe penalties than California.Federal Law supercedes State Law, and the Feds uphold the CITES ban. If they want to arrest you for selling ivory, they will. "Commercialization" is a very broad word. Piss off the Feds and sell a pool cue - you'll find out
Ernie Gutierrez didn't get popped by California State Police
But ok, you're the expert on all things, good luck
California could have also prosecuted him but federal law was used instead. I know I am on solid ground with my
prior written communications with CA Fish & Wildlife and supportive documentation confirming my order dates and purchases. However, you are entitled to think and say whatever you want regardless of how erroneously you believe.
Attachments
You are correct but the Feds are never going to prosecute me since I’ll never take my cues outside the USA.
And if I sell or traded my cues in a different state without any ivory restrictions, the Feds have no jurisdiction.
I would not have broken any federal statute and abided by the laws of the sovereign state I was physically in.
People misunderstand the nuances of the ivory ban. Cue makers can still build their cues using ivory but must
reside where ivory sales are not banned. CA cue makers can’t, however, Fla., LA, etc. cue makers could use it.
Cali Bust 1
Cali Bust 2
This is what happens in a lockdown state when you sell ivory within the state. I just wrote appraisals for over 20 cues in a collection that is in California. Technically they have no market within the state, but I put on approx retail values if they were anywhere but there. Can you drive them or ship them to someone in a non-lockdown state, sure you can. That is the loophole. Since they aren't registered in anyway with the state, so yes, you could drive them to a commerce friendly state. As a resident of California though, I believe it could be construed as a crime, technically you are evading their laws.
I read the bill that was passed and they are a lockdown state. You can see if you read the new articles, they are serious about enforcement even at the state level.
Not a lawyer... and I do not play one on TV...
JV
Cali Bust 2
This is what happens in a lockdown state when you sell ivory within the state. I just wrote appraisals for over 20 cues in a collection that is in California. Technically they have no market within the state, but I put on approx retail values if they were anywhere but there. Can you drive them or ship them to someone in a non-lockdown state, sure you can. That is the loophole. Since they aren't registered in anyway with the state, so yes, you could drive them to a commerce friendly state. As a resident of California though, I believe it could be construed as a crime, technically you are evading their laws.
I read the bill that was passed and they are a lockdown state. You can see if you read the new articles, they are serious about enforcement even at the state level.
Not a lawyer... and I do not play one on TV...
JV
DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
It's funny that you are so into ivory and believe you know the laws, but couldn't find what I found in ten minutes of searching.
You need to be able to provide CITES permits for the original source of the ivory in order to sell. That means that you need to go to the makers and get their original paperwork...which they probably didn't get from their suppliers, who may or may not have gotten it from their poachers.
It's pretty clear that when you take a cue to vegas to sell, you are violating the federal interstate commerce law.
None of your cues listed in your signature were built before 1990, which appears to be the relevant CITES date.
Elephant Ivory FAQs | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service
These FAQs provide guidance on how to legally buy, sell, or otherwise trade in elephant ivory to ensure that our domestic markets do not contribute to the decline of elephants in the wild. It’s important to note that regulations do not restrict personal possession of ivory.
I should have done my homework as well, for I bought a hundred year old Everett Upright thinking those keys were solid Ivory.
Like you, very disappointed to find them a veneer. Now I really do own a 100 year old White Elephant!!
Peruse the attachments in my earlier post about intrastate transactions. When I’m in another state, CA laws don’t apply. The reference to 1990 refers to ivory imported before 1990. It states ”ivory lawfully imported into the United States prior to the date the African elephant was listed in CITES Appendix (January 18, 1990); seller must demonstrate.It's funny that you are so into ivory and believe you know the laws, but couldn't find what I found in ten minutes of searching.
You need to be able to provide CITES permits for the original source of the ivory in order to sell. That means that you need to go to the makers and get their original paperwork...which they probably didn't get from their suppliers, who may or may not have gotten it from their poachers.
It's pretty clear that when you take a cue to vegas to sell, you are violating the federal interstate commerce law.
None of your cues listed in your signature were built before 1990, which appears to be the relevant CITES date.
Elephant Ivory FAQs | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service
These FAQs provide guidance on how to legally buy, sell, or otherwise trade in elephant ivory to ensure that our domestic markets do not contribute to the decline of elephants in the wild. It’s important to note that regulations do not restrict personal possession of ivory.www.fws.gov
It does not say the seller must have a CITES certificate for the cues to conduct an intrastate sale, underlying assumption being that state did not have any ivory restrictions. It states plainly sales within a state are allowed.
CA Fish & Wildlife confirmed this to me in January 2016. The cues I ordered would conflict with the de facto date of the ivory ban enactment. So my cue makers revised their schedules to make sure my cues would get completed before the ban took effect. Unless there is some revision to the current laws, I can sell my cues in a different state.
I’m going to Baton Rouge in the springtime to visit one of my children. Louisiana doesn’t have a ivory ban. I could bring some cues and sell them without fear of violating any federal law and CA state law doesn’t apply. The documentation I have overwhelmingly substantiates my cues were built before July 1, 2016. The cue makers have never been accused with violating the ivory ban and remember, possession of pre-ban ivory is clearly legal. As long as my cues remain stateside, I am free and clear. However, if I attempted to cross any border with my cues, which I never intend to do, I could have the cues seized and destroyed if the age of the ivory had to be tested and confirmed to be pre-ban ivory.
p.s. In case folks didn’t know, U.S. Fish & Wildlife acknowledges that there is also a de minimum exemption for ivory.
Recollection cues has a great explanation on their website about ivory, or at least it did. De minimus exception is real.
It even allows for interstate transactions. Nonetheless, I reside in CA & that’s where my cues are so I abide by the law.
Attachments
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DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Reread the part about interstate ivory trade, it's very clear on taking ivory across state lines with intent to sell. Or keep telling yourself what you want to hear.
I am not a dealer and do not intend to sell interstate. I made that lucidly clear. But the law clearly spells out how and intrastate transactions are allowed. The attachments I’ve referenced are from U.S. Fish & Wildlife. What do you have to refute me?
There are a lot of billiards professionals on this site including dealers and cue makers. Let’s see what they say, what they know or believe about restricted use of ivory. I’m just reciting what the regulations say. You are saying I’m wrong. Well, can you show me in writing disproving what I’ve explained is not correct. Until then, I’ll let the readers decide what’s what.
There are a lot of billiards professionals on this site including dealers and cue makers. Let’s see what they say, what they know or believe about restricted use of ivory. I’m just reciting what the regulations say. You are saying I’m wrong. Well, can you show me in writing disproving what I’ve explained is not correct. Until then, I’ll let the readers decide what’s what.
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DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Yours aren't antiques. Yours exceed the de minimus requirement.
Selling in person when you are outside your home state is interstate commerce.