As you get better should you use a harder tip?

[Straightpool_99]

Why not think in terms of what actually happens? Softer vs. harder pieces of leather that act primarily as carriers of the chalk that produces virtually all of the actual "traction" on the cue ball.

pj
chgo

Hard tips take more careful chalking, since they tend not to hold on to the chalk as well. If you chalk perfectly and have a perfect stroke, then it does not matter. If you are a bit sloppy with chalking you should definitely not get a hard tip. IMHO. There is a very good reason why most don't play with a phenolic tip. Why not use that, since it lasts forever and you can get an equal amount of spin, and easy jumping and breaking as well, or why not use a Samsara break tip as a playing tip, it's even leather?

Everybody that can play knows that playing with rock hard tips like that is much less forgiving and it feels like crap as well. It's not impossible to run a rack, but it sure isn't easy, especially if you like soft spinning the ball a lot. With centerball medium speed shots, it doesnt' matter of course, but then you could use a broom.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

COR/Hardness has a bunch todo with linear speed so there would have to be different spin/speed ratios for the same stroke speed...

A change in linear force produces a proportional change in both linear and rotational speeds - the spin/speed ratio is unchanged. This is borne out by test results using different tips and different shot speeds.

pj
chgo

 

[The Renfro]

Why not think in terms of what actually happens? Softer vs. harder pieces of leather that act primarily as carriers of the chalk that produces virtually all of the actual "traction" on the cue ball.

pj
chgo

Interesting concept... I think of them more as springs and not just the chalk carrier... As such contact time and all the subtleties that can be done with the stroke during contact come to mind... A straight stroking robot may prove your concept.. Now we just gotta build one and then after the straight stroking teach it to swerve LOL

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Everybody that can play knows that playing with rock hard tips like that is much less forgiving and it feels like crap as well.

That must be why nobody does that.

pj
chgo

 

[Jal]

...

Do we know that the "effective tip offset" is at the center of the "contact range"?

It depends on what you mean by "know."

To put exact numbers on it, you would need to know exactly how the force acting on the ball varies with time - I certainly don't. But what is clear is that it starts at zero, builds to a peak, then slides back down to zero. From this and a few other detailsI think you can arrive at a pretty good estimate of the effective tip offset.

The short version is that it's very likely to be close to the initial offset at first contact, as opposed to the middle or end. In fact, for normal cues and slow to moderate speed shots, I think the effective offset is probably slightly less than the initial one. With lower squirt cues and higher speed shots, it's likely a bit more than the initial offset, but not much and not near the center of the range.

I'm basing this on some predictions you can make concerning all "dome" shaped force-time curves regardless of their specific shapes.

Does it matter in the comparison of hard vs. soft tips (shorter vs. longer contact times)?

I think what Bob said still holds true.

Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

["Effective tip offset" is] very likely to be close to the initial offset at first contact, as opposed to the middle or end. In fact, for normal cues and slow to moderate speed shots, I think the effective offset is probably slightly less than the initial one. With lower squirt cues and higher speed shots, it's likely a bit more than the initial offset, but not much and not near the center of the range.

Thanks, Jim, very interesting as always.

pj
chgo

 

[mullyman]

Here in Japan the medium tips seem to be the preference. It used to be Moori but now they tell me everyone is using Kamui.


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[Tramp Steamer]

Just for clarification, is it when you get better as a player, or when you get older as a player? I've noticed, now that I've gotten older, that my tip has gotten somewhat softer.
Of course, I don't use it as much as I used to, but it's still not as hard as it once was.
When I was young it was hard enough to scratch glass, and that got me into a lot of trouble, but, as time went buy, it changed.
Maybe it's the chalk.

 

[deanoc]

I thought that Efren used very soft,milk dud tips

And so did other very good players

Not facts,I just heard

I do know that Bob Owen was making special milk dudsoft tips for Gabe and some others back
when Gabe played.

He had a formula and pressure vice like thing to make them exact

 

[PoolBoy1]

One of the top, top Taiwan players uses a soft tip and says that many of his fellow pros in Taiwan, use a soft tip.

I have used Super Soft, Soft, Medium and Hard tips to play with. For me, Hard tips are just too hard. I don't like the noise and they seem to glaze over too quickly and require more maintenance.

I have been using Medium tips for a while but am headed down to the softer layered tips for a try. We'll see how that goes.

I also notice that MANY, MANY, TOP PLAYERS like their tip to be VERY SHORT in height. Some remove half of the layers from their tips because "they like it that way".

The tip is the only thing that contacts the cue ball which we have control over so discussion on tips is a good thing for us and the tip manufacturers.

JoeyA

They cut em down because they like em harder!

 

[PoolBoy1]

I've heard lots of people say that too. If they're using a soft tip and letting it get down to the ferrule, they might as well just use a hard tip.

Correct! The mind is mindless. It will do what's bests most times. So one could assume they are using a soft tip to satisfy their ego's and really be using a soft tip out of the box made harder. Others say they like a tip after 10-20 games into it but really it's just harder..I soften my hard tip *****ing it with a safety pin just a touch. Imagine the word *****ing is now not politically correct!

 

[peter_gunn]

I believe the function of the clear layer of plastic was to prevent the glue from soaking up into the tip, thus possibly preventing the glue from sticking and also getting the tip hard from the soaked up glue. I CALL BS!

1. The only reason why a tip would soak up glue, would be the repairman using thin ca glue. If you use the proper gel glue, it will never happen. Also there is a myth that if you press the tip down hard, you will squeeze the glue out, preventing a bond. This is also nonsense. Prepare the surfaces of the tip and ferrule by sanding. Do not apply glue that is allowed to dry. This is bullshit that will make the glue bond weaker. After sanding apply gel glue to ferrule and push the tip down hard with your thumb. Hold it while watching a movie or something. It should be stuck on after only 5 minutes, but I like to hold it longer just in case. I've NEVER had a tip come loose, except once when I accidentally used old glue. Use fresh gel CA glue, it will never happen.

2. The myth about the glue "wicking" up through the layers is bullshit. The tip will glaze and harden because of the pounding it receives from the impacts and the polishing by the chalk, not by wicking glue. Again, use the gel CA not the thin ones. I believe this myth might have arisen while pressing the tip on with the shaft in the lathe, having glue pressed out from the ferrule/tip connection and spilling on the sides of the tip. If you hold the cue upright while pressing, this will never happen. Also, don't use the thin CA. Why would you, when the gel is so much better?

Even if it were true, remember that a layered tip has layers of hardned glue between the layers of leather that would form a barrier against any glue from the ferrule. Also remember that this is leather, not toilet paper.

3. The clear layer makes it harder to trim the tip.

4. The clear layer does IMHO not look "cool". This is only an opinion.

5. The clear layer Kamuis are ridiculously overpriced, again IMHO:

^^^^ all wrong ccc

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