ash wood maple wood

T

Thepip

David
Silver Member
I would like to hear from people on why one is used over the other. Snooker is more of a British sport where ash cues are used for the game and ash trees are more readily available. Where as in America we play more 8,9,10 ball games and use Maple which is a tree readily available in the US.

I do understand that that maple is harder then ash when comparing the density of the wood but then we could debate that would cause more deflection when it comes to maple and that's a different discussion.

If i talk about the pool balls it's my understanding that the Snooker balls although smaller are heaver. Where as a standard set of Aramith ball are larger and lighter.

Are there people or cue makers out there that have used ash in the past and have some other reason for not using it. I read a long article when it comes to making baseball bates that both ash and maple along with other woods like oak and bamboo are used.

Ash is a bit softer which allows it to flex during the swing and produce a great whip through the hitting zone, leading to better bat control and a rebounding effect for greater distance because of a greater sweet spot.
Maple wood bats because these bats have a hardness and stiffness that allows players to exert as much force as possible onto the ball. harder hitting surface and greater durability.

What do you think?
 
its simple

american pool players will not buy cues with ash shafts, so builders don't build cues with ash shafts.

i have made a few cues with ash shafts and i think they play o.k., but most people just don't like the look.
 
Ash and maple have very similar characteristics.
Years ago I've seen them compared about 20 different ways.

The advantage of maple for billiards is that it is smooth-grained and if
round, flexes consistently.
Ash is open-grained (I've seen old ash cues with hills and valleys) and it
flexes differently with the arrows sideways or up. (which is why British
cue makers have to line up the grain lines)

However, ash was the wood of convenience in the home of snooker.

But non-ash cues have won 24 world snooker titles, that I know of.
Oak has won 15.....Joe Davis
Maple....John Spencer, Cliff Thorburn, and Stephen Hendry
 
PT109, that is really good information and if i am correct Ronnie O'Sullivan who has won more snooker then Kenyon else and holds several titles uses an ash Snooker cue. I am going to have an ash shaft made for my cue and try it out.
 
Ash and Maple aren't the only woods used for shafts that I know of. I've seen a purpleheart one out there. It was custom of course as the standard here is Maple. Not sure why the industry went with that, but a factor might be the visual affect. I would chose a lighter colored shaft as opposed to say the purpleheart just because it looks cleaner. Sounds silly, I know, but I'm sure there are other woods out there that might be better for shooting purposes than maple. It might be combination of availability (restricted/rarity), cost, play-ability, etc...and maybe like I said..."looks." LOL. :-)
 
When the Xbreakers were popular they made a jump cue with an Ash shaft. The shaft was also interchangeable with their break cues and broke great.
 
Thepip said:
I would like to hear from people on why one is used over the other. Snooker is more of a British sport where ash cues are used for the game and ash trees are more readily available. Where as in America we play more 8,9,10 ball games and use Maple which is a tree readily available in the US.
Click to expand...

Not true -- as Philthepockets stated, North American Ash is used in snooker cues.

Thepip said:
I do understand that that maple is harder then ash when comparing the density of the wood but then we could debate that would cause more deflection when it comes to maple and that's a different discussion.

If i talk about the pool balls it's my understanding that the Snooker balls although smaller are heaver. Where as a standard set of Aramith ball are larger and lighter.
Click to expand...

Again, not true. Snooker balls are made of the same phenolic resin that pool balls are, all the way to the core. So if that's true, why would snooker balls be heavier / pool balls be lighter? Snooker balls, in fact, because THEY are lighter, are vulnerable to a phenomenon rarely seen in pool, and that's "kick" -- where the cue ball bounces when struck.

Thepip said:
Are there people or cue makers out there that have used ash in the past and have some other reason for not using it. I read a long article when it comes to making baseball bates that both ash and maple along with other woods like oak and bamboo are used.

Ash is a bit softer which allows it to flex during the swing and produce a great whip through the hitting zone, leading to better bat control and a rebounding effect for greater distance because of a greater sweet spot.
Maple wood bats because these bats have a hardness and stiffness that allows players to exert as much force as possible onto the ball. harder hitting surface and greater durability.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Not sure where you're getting your information, but the real reason maple has overtaken ash in construction of baseball bats is this:

"Huge strides being made in reducing broken bats"
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120803&content_id=36046676

Basically, when ash bats break (and ash wood breaks easily), they rupture. When maple bats break (not as easy -- because maple wood is harder/stronger than ash), they break cleanly. However, a maple bat's propensity to break cleanly also includes the danger of large flying shards, and many people / players have been injured from being hit by these flying shards.

Concerning pool cues (and shafts specifically), the further up the Janka Hardness Test you go, the more deflection you can expect from that wood.

Hickory, for instance is one of the ultimate hardest of the "commonly available" hardwoods in North America -- much harder than oak, even -- and scores a *very* respectable 1820 on the Janka Hardness Test. (Note: "commonly available" means you can look out your back window and probably see one of these trees growing nearby. Noone expects to see a Brazilian Ebony or Lignum Vitae tree growing nearby.) However, hickory *is* so damn hard and heavy -- it actually dulls chainsaw blades (I know this from personal experience) -- that a shaft made from it can be expected to have even more deflection than maple.

So in pool, one thinks, it might be better to go in the opposite direction -- towards lighter woods, right? However, this works against you. For one, you lose a lot of the sensation of the hit -- lighter woods tend to be less resonant. (As an example, you don't see any parts of wooden musical instruments being made from Balsa wood.) And, using a lighter wood messes up the balance of the cue -- it tends to throw the balance point further back into the butt, making them "rearward heavy."

Maple, as the "entry level" into the classification of hardwoods, seems to have the best balance of straight grain, strength, resonance, weight, etc. for pool cue shafts and "coring" of pool cue butts.

Put it this way: after all these decades, you'd think if there was a better wood out there, you'd be seeing it by now in pool shafts, right? And you aren't. Maple seems to be it, with perhaps Ash as an "interesting" contender.

Personally, I think the next "upgrade" for materials used in pool cue shafts is going to be man-made -- perhaps a next-generation graphite or something along those lines. But as with any old sport with a lot of history (as pool is / has), introduction of a man-made material into a nostalgic instrument as a pool cue is going to meet with a lot of resistance from "tradition."

-Sean
 
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sfleinen said:
Hickory, for instance is one of the ultimate hardest of the "commonly available" hardwoods in North America -- much harder than oak, even -- and scores a *very* respectable 1820 on the Janka Hardness Test. (Note: "commonly available" means you can look out your back window and probably see one of these trees growing nearby. Noone expects to see a Brazilian Ebony or Lignum Vitae tree growing nearby.) However, hickory *is* so damn hard and heavy -- it actually dulls chainsaw blades (I know this from personal experience) -- that a shaft made from it can be expected to have even more deflection than maple.

-Sean
Click to expand...

You got my attention on hickory, Sean.
What do your instincts tell you about hickory in the forearm of a good cue?
I need another cue like a hole in the head, but I may have to try this.
Gus Szamboti was very particular about the forearm wood.....
...unless it was a custom order.

My info on ash and maple, btw, came from a man in your business.....
...maple and were compared 20 ways.
...late 70s...the mainframe days.
 
pt109 said:
You got my attention on hickory, Sean.
What do your instincts tell you about hickory in the forearm of a good cue?
I need another cue like a hole in the head, but I may have to try this.
Gus Szamboti was very particular about the forearm wood.....
...unless it was a custom order.

My info on ash and maple, btw, came from a man in your business.....
...maple and were compared 20 ways.
...late 70s...the mainframe days.
Click to expand...

Paul:

I would say hickory would be an excellent choice for the forearm (and buttplate) of a cue. Pretty much anywhere in the butt, with the proviso that the cuemaker balance the cue correctly, because remember -- hickory is VERY heavy (heavier than purpleheart, even though purpleheart scores very slightly higher on the Janka test). You might think about coring the cue with maple, and use hickory as a "shell" or jacket, because I think a solid piece would be just too heavy (and if used only in the forearm, would throw the balance point of the cue w-a-y far forward than expected).

Interesting side story about hickory:

We had two instances with storms ripping down trees in the last couple of years -- first, an F-1 tornado (rare in these parts), and then superstorm Sandy. During both, we had a couple hickory trees pulled down, and Lisa and I were out there for days cutting 'em up and splitting firewood. With the electricity out, hickory taught me how to quickly field-sharpen my chainsaws using a Granberg jig. In all my years of woodsmanship (including being an apprentice for my Dad, who was an arborsman / tree surgeon on the side), I never had to do that before. I couldn't believe how resistant to cutting this wood is.

EDIT: Also, I was cutting one particular tree that was laying over a flowing stream (approximately 2 feet deep), and the pieces were going right to the bottom -- hickory sinks!

And then, splitting hickory is an experience. In an electric or engine splitter, at first, it looks like the blade isn't even penetrating the end of the log, and you hear the hydraulic pump start to strain. But then as the pressure ramps up, it lets go with a loud BANG. I mean, the log explodes! We learned quickly to not stand to the sides of the splitter, lest you get whacked with these really heavy (and sharp!) pieces that would definitely send you to the hospital. We couldn't believe how heavy this wood is, too. I was always brought up to believe that Oak was the hardest of the commonly-available hardwoods. That belief was shattered when I encountered hickory for the first time.

I can see why hickory is no longer used for baseball bats, because it's just too damn heavy. And, why we no longer have baseball players the caliber of Babe Ruth or Mickey Mantle -- swinging hickory like that tends to make you into a different player. ;)

-Sean
 
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Thanx, Sean.
What do you feel about the resonance of hickory?

I had a Cog with an ebony forearm and I couldn't stand it....
...I love ebony in a cue, but in the forearm, it gives a dead hit.
 
I lost a hickory tree recently too.

It was fun getting it all cut up and split, but it sure does smell good in the wood burner.:thumbup:
 

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sfleinen said:
Paul:

I would say hickory would be an excellent choice for the forearm (and buttplate) of a cue. Pretty much anywhere in the butt, with the proviso that the cuemaker balance the cue correctly, because remember -- hickory is VERY heavy (heavier than purpleheart, even though purpleheart scores very slightly higher on the Janka test). You might think about coring the cue with maple, and use hickory as a "shell" or jacket, because I think a solid piece would be just too heavy (and if used only in the forearm, would throw the balance point of the cue w-a-y far forward than expected).

Interesting side story about hickory:

We had two instances with storms ripping down trees in the last couple of years -- first, an F-1 tornado (rare in these parts), and then superstorm Sandy. During both, we had a couple hickory trees pulled down, and Lisa and I were out there for days cutting 'em up and splitting firewood. With the electricity out, hickory taught me how to quickly field-sharpen my chainsaws using a Granberg jig. In all my years of woodsmanship (including being an apprentice for my Dad, who was an arborsman / tree surgeon on the side), I never had to do that before. I couldn't believe how resistant to cutting this wood is.

EDIT: Also, I was cutting one particular tree that was laying over a flowing stream (approximately 2 feet deep), and the pieces were going right to the bottom -- hickory sinks!

And then, splitting hickory is an experience. In an electric or engine splitter, at first, it looks like the blade isn't even penetrating the end of the log, and you hear the hydraulic pump start to strain. But then as the pressure ramps up, it lets go with a loud BANG. I mean, the log explodes! We learned quickly to not stand to the sides of the splitter, lest you get whacked with these really heavy (and sharp!) pieces that would definitely send you to the hospital. We couldn't believe how heavy this wood is, too. I was always brought up to believe that Oak was the hardest of the commonly-available hardwoods. That belief was shattered when I encountered hickory for the first time.

I can see why hickory is no longer used for baseball bats, because it's just too damn heavy. And, why we no longer have baseball players the caliber of Babe Ruth or Mickey Mantle -- swinging hickory like that tends to make you into a different player. ;)

-Sean
Click to expand...

Interesting observations.

FWIW many dense hardwoods sink when green, including red oak. However, neither hickory nor oak will sink in water once dried. Shagbark hickory has a SG of around .80 at 12% MCdb compared to hard maple or BEM at around .72 (SG of water is 1.0 by definition), so there is only a 10% difference in density between the two woods. Adding a stainless steel joint would have a much bigger effect on cue balance IMO.

Here's some pretty special fiddleback pignut hickory I saved from my firewood pile many moons ago. In over 25 years of cutting firewood (maybe 150 full cord of hardwood) I've never seen hickory with this much figure, so I just had to save it for something.

It's been air-drying for several years now, and will likely end up as cue forearms and butt sleeves once I get set up for cue making. I'd be real interested in your opinion about how it plays once I get one togethter.
 

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I had bunch of snooker cues, few of them were ash and few were maple. Maple cue (exactly same model just different wood) felt completely different and much softer hit, I could never get used to it and stick with ash snooker cues

I also recently tried a cue butt with custom maple snooker shaft on it, hit is real soft too (could be because of taper, but from now on I think of maple is much softer hitting wood compared to ash)
 
sfleinen said:
Not true -- as Philthepockets stated, North American Ash is used in snooker cues.



Again, not true. Snooker balls are made of the same phenolic resin that pool balls are, all the way to the core. So if that's true, why would snooker balls be heavier / pool balls be lighter? Snooker balls, in fact, because THEY are lighter, are vulnerable to a phenomenon rarely seen in pool, and that's "kick" -- where the cue ball bounces when struck.



Not sure where you're getting your information, but the real reason maple has overtaken ash in construction of baseball bats is this:

"Huge strides being made in reducing broken bats"
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120803&content_id=36046676

Basically, when ash bats break (and ash wood breaks easily), they rupture. When maple bats break (not as easy -- because maple wood is harder/stronger than ash), they break cleanly. However, a maple bat's propensity to break cleanly also includes the danger of large flying shards, and many people / players have been injured from being hit by these flying shards.

Concerning pool cues (and shafts specifically), the further up the Janka Hardness Test you go, the more deflection you can expect from that wood.

Hickory, for instance is one of the ultimate hardest of the "commonly available" hardwoods in North America -- much harder than oak, even -- and scores a *very* respectable 1820 on the Janka Hardness Test. (Note: "commonly available" means you can look out your back window and probably see one of these trees growing nearby. Noone expects to see a Brazilian Ebony or Lignum Vitae tree growing nearby.) However, hickory *is* so damn hard and heavy -- it actually dulls chainsaw blades (I know this from personal experience) -- that a shaft made from it can be expected to have even more deflection than maple.

So in pool, one thinks, it might be better to go in the opposite direction -- towards lighter woods, right? However, this works against you. For one, you lose a lot of the sensation of the hit -- lighter woods tend to be less resonant. (As an example, you don't see any parts of wooden musical instruments being made from Balsa wood.) And, using a lighter wood messes up the balance of the cue -- it tends to throw the balance point further back into the butt, making them "rearward heavy."

Maple, as the "entry level" into the classification of hardwoods, seems to have the best balance of straight grain, strength, resonance, weight, etc. for pool cue shafts and "coring" of pool cue butts.

Put it this way: after all these decades, you'd think if there was a better wood out there, you'd be seeing it by now in pool shafts, right? And you aren't. Maple seems to be it, with perhaps Ash as an "interesting" contender.

Personally, I think the next "upgrade" for materials used in pool cue shafts is going to be man-made -- perhaps a next-generation graphite or something along those lines. But as with any old sport with a lot of history (as pool is / has), introduction of a man-made material into a nostalgic instrument as a pool cue is going to meet with a lot of resistance from "tradition."

-Sean
Click to expand...



So what do you think about Hornbeam being used in Russian billiard cues and by AZB's own, DBK?

In between Ash and Hickory on the janka scale.
 
great information Sean,

Some of the information I gathered cam right from the http://www.slugger.com/bats/ website about there bats and looking at each bat they make ash/maple and there woods.

WOOD BASEBALL BATS
ASH
A lighter, more flexible timber than maple bats, ash bats give a wider range of large barrel models and a larger, more forgiving sweet spot that results in less breakage. Ash is the timber of choice for many MLB sluggers.

WOOD BASEBALL BATS
MAPLE
Maple's dense, hard timber makes it a powerful bat less prone to flaking and one, many players say, that improves their performance in the batter's box. Slugger's maple bats are built for power and performance, and many of the MLB's biggest hitters prefer them.

MLB PRIME
We rebuilt our bats from the ground up with old-school methods and cutting-edge technology. We start with the best-quality veneer wood on the market and use Amish square-cut craftsmanship, a 360-degree compression process superior to bone rubbing, and an advanced finishing system that guarantees 9H hardness – the highest rating available on the 21-level universal hardness scale. MLB Prime is the only bat available to the public that is the exact same bat used by the pros.

Which is what you get in both ash and maple. http://www.slugger.com/bats/technology/default.aspx
 
So i would then also like to add if deflection is based on the hard density and age of the wood then (me) one would think it would have less deflection.

I am having an ash shaft made, where the wood comes from a Louisville Slugger bat I bought in the 80's my current shaft is maple and is at 15.0 oz, shaft that is ivory ferrule, 13.04 mm. The ash shaft will be more of a European taper at 11.75mm with an Ivory Ferrule.
 
mel_smOg said:
I had bunch of snooker cues, few of them were ash and few were maple. Maple cue (exactly same model just different wood) felt completely different and much softer hit, I could never get used to it and stick with ash snooker cues

I also recently tried a cue butt with custom maple snooker shaft on it, hit is real soft too (could be because of taper, but from now on I think of maple is much softer hitting wood compared to ash)
Click to expand...

Ash has a reputation in Canadian circles of being stronger and harder hitting...
....but I feel it's because of taper....'British hitting' cue traditionally have
a stronger taper...if maple is tapered the same way, it is very close.
 
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