Ask me too
- Thread starter FranCrimi
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The question was in reference to beginners & not anyone with a 'grooved' stroke.
Someone once stated else where that Mr. Lee had changed his philosophy from CB last to OB last.
If that is so, perhaps you can ask him when & why he changed his mind.
Unlike you, Rick. I don't care about what others choose to do.
This will be my last post in this thread unless I have a specific question for Fran.
No exact statistics...I don't bother to keep statistics like that with my students.
That being said, I can assure you that it is much higher that before they attend the class. Let's just call it significant improvement. And isn't that the reason most people seek instruction? And the more they work on the skills taught, the more improvement they will see. Since they also learn how and what to practice, they are armed with the tools they need to continue to improve. Whether or not they choose to use those tools is entirely up to them.
As for your other question, you should know the answer. There are other reasons for missing shots besides stroke flaws. You can have a perfect stroke, but if you aim at the wrong place, the shot isn't going to go. A good stroke is a key component to a better game, but it is not the only component. But you knew that, and just want to continue to argue.
'nuff said.
Steve
I don't know. What does hitting center axis have to do with looking at cb or ob last? You obviously were looking for an angle to say that even with teaching, one can not hit the center cb reliably. And, in so doing, asked a silly question. Silly, because you know, or at least should know having coached others, that just passing on knowledge will not help anyone until they utilize that knowledge. So, I just turned the table back on you to answer your own question.
edit: My wife is doing fine, and I am getting there. Thanks for caring.
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Sir,
You stated how you worked with a student with the CB only & checked for verification of the hit where intended with a training ball & that you can't put the horse before the cart.
I was just wondering if you did the same after the OB was added into the equation & confirmed that the student was also actually looking at the OB last & what percentage of actually hitting where intended that might be with the OB in play.
I was wondering if there was an initial regression when the OB was added into the equation. One might be able to make an accurate stroke with their eyes closed while in a perfect set up but if their eyes are focused elsewhere that may not be the case for every individual.
Since Neil brought up baseball & my pitching coach experience, when pitchers came from the playgrounds to the middle school where I was coaching, many of them stared at the catchers mitt from taking the signal til after the delivery of the ball but most did not have a high percentage success rate of actually hitting the mitt.
When I got them to take their 'stare' off the mitt during the wind up & to focus on it again during the forward motion of the delivery, their percentages nearly doubled in most cases. Every individual does not function optimally in the same manner. Does anyone remember Juan Marachelle (spelling?)
Ones eyes can either aid or hinder the execution of certain activities. The eyes can affect one's mind & the 'mind's eye'. Everyone's mind does not work in the same manner. Closing one's eyes & visualizing a balls flight is very big in some golf circles. What does it actually physically have do with the hitting of the golf ball? Nothing, but some would never hit a golf shot without doing it due to their increase consistency of success when employing it.
I just thought you might be able to answer the question. I can certainly accept your answer of significant improvement. I was just wondering about how well the horse performed after it was hitched to the cart (OB).
I apologize for asking the question of you.
Best Wishes,
Rick
PS A back & forth conversation or discussion does not have to be classified as an argument but in logical debate both sides do present their 'arguments' & it is NOT a BAD word. However, when one preaches from the pulpit, they don't usually take & answer questions. They just preach. Again my apologies.
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The above is a partial quote.
Neil,
I am sincerely glad that all went well with your wife's surgery. Take care of each other. I have a 22 year old son that I call my miracle baby. All prayers may not be answered but I certainly believe that many are.
No offense but the only relation that the pitching coaching thing had to do with OB/CB last questions were the eyes & where & when to look during both deliveries.
Do we really need to play those detouring games to get a question answered, which still has not really been answered.
If in your opinion, as implied above, is that looking at the OB or CB 'last' or during the stroke makes no difference for everyone, then why was the CB 'last' taught at one time & now the OB 'last' seems to be the predominant teaching method? Please note that I am sincerely asking you a specific question & I would appreciate your answer & opinion or ideas.
Please realize that I am not looking to 'argue'. The topic is being discussed in a couple of other threads & a few seem to be having some issues with it. Everyone is not going to completely overhaul there methods & switch to an SPF pendulum stroke. I just thought that it might be good to get some instructors' feed back & explanations to support those opinions, if any good explanations do exits.
Also, I have been looking OB area in a sort of peripheral manner for you know how many years. But since playing with TOI, I have been looking at the CB longer during the stroke & many times up until just before contact. I have not made that change consciously but have simply gravitated to it & I am not exactly sure why, but I have an idea or two.
So...the topic of OB or CB 'last' is of interest to those in the other threads & I have an interest as well.
Best Wishes,
Rick
PS I would sincerely like to hear your opinions on the subject if you have any supportive explanations or ideas. I don't think anyone needs or wants, 'just do it because, so & so says to do it.' No offense meant. Please understand that most people want explanations as to why or how so, or at least I do.
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Well...
Unlike you, Jon...
I'm 60 years old.
I'm not really that concerned about myself.
I'm concerned & care about all those out there, sort of like you, that may have some issues & are still looking for answers.
Best Wishes,
Rick
PS I would suggest that you & everyone follow almost any advice that Fran Crimi gives.
Studies by those that are experts in eye patterns have shown what works best for most people. That is what the instructors teach. The instructors don't just pick something nilly-willy to teach, they have studied what the experts in various categories are now expounding, and teach that.
That said, we are all unique in some ways, and there are always exceptions to the rule.
The consensus today is that it is best to look at the cb for a few seconds, then pause and look at the ob last, giving yourself a couple of seconds to look at the ob, then shoot. One can also just look at the cb if they trust their aim line completely (such as using a strong aiming system), and then after the shot look at the path of the cb and easily see where it hits the ob.
By far, the biggest thing is to do what you do consistently, and to allow yourself enough time at either the cb or ob to actually see what it is you are looking for. Just rapidly stroking the cue, or never looking at the cb, is a recipe for errors. Errors that you really won't see properly so you can properly adjust to correct them.
Thanks Neil,
That's a good post for everyone interested.
Do you know why, what advantages, were determined buy the experts to looking OB 'last' or during the stroke is best for most?
Did they give any reasons?
Thanks Again,
Rick
Not right off hand. Try googling "eye patterns in sports". Might come up with some studies that way.??
Rick, no need to apologize for asking a question...but I suspect you already know the answers to some of your questions, based on your experience with some other instructors.
As I said, I don't keep statistics on details. But when an APA skill level 3 calls me two months after completing the class to tell me he moved up to a 4 and is already on the verge of becoming a 5, those are the things I base the success of the SPF program on. And that is not an isolated case. I get those calls quite frequently.
And yes, there is a drop off during the first couple of weeks of a student working to incorporate their new knowledge and skills into their game. We actually recommend they not participate in high level competition for at least 3 weeks after taking the class for just that reason. But a temporary drop off is a small price to pay for a long term major improvement.
Steve
As I said, I don't keep statistics on details. But when an APA skill level 3 calls me two months after completing the class to tell me he moved up to a 4 and is already on the verge of becoming a 5, those are the things I base the success of the SPF program on. And that is not an isolated case. I get those calls quite frequently.
And yes, there is a drop off during the first couple of weeks of a student working to incorporate their new knowledge and skills into their game. We actually recommend they not participate in high level competition for at least 3 weeks after taking the class for just that reason. But a temporary drop off is a small price to pay for a long term major improvement.
Steve
Steve,
I certainly agree that long term gain should be the goal over a temporary fix to anything. I was just wondering about the regression, if any, once the OB was added. If so, a question as to why the regression happens comes up. I don't guess it really matters if it is in deed a short term regression.
I think it might be an interesting study if done scientifically as to which eye location during the stroke actually yields a higher percentage of precision if one is actually greater than the other.
I'm not asking most questions, for me. I've been playing rather well for very many years. As I said, I thought I knew how you would answer.
Also, as I said, a few seem to be having some issues based on a couple of other threads. I just thought I'd ask Fran her opinion for beginners & perhaps get a few others' thoughts as well.
Thanks & Best Wishes,
Rick
Rick, here's just one link that will give you some idea of eye patterns. http://billiardsdigest.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-16339.html