sir: my remarks about gal players is MY opinion, not personal attacks on sarah. i happen to believe that gal players rank very low on the scale when comparing them to male players. SO MIKE as you hint I will for the time being just read and not post my opinions. [dont want to ruffle such fragile girl players feathers. PS - mr. barton, efren and one of his backers, mark bitor have already offered allison and her backers the 6 and the break for 20.000 some time ago and were turned down.
AZ housepro
- Thread starter JMB
- Start date
You may think the gals rank low on the totem pole, but they're the ones enjoying the television exposure.
Again, that last ESPN broadcast of Karen Corr's win was dramatic and thrilling. I'd like to see more matches such as this!
Successful shows like these can only lay the groundwork and enhance men's pool, if the men ever get their you-know-what together!
ManlyShot
Again, that last ESPN broadcast of Karen Corr's win was dramatic and thrilling. I'd like to see more matches such as this!
Successful shows like these can only lay the groundwork and enhance men's pool, if the men ever get their you-know-what together!
ManlyShot
I dont know why people continue to put the "MEN" down when it comes to the women tour. Maybe it makes people like Ewa and Mr. Laurance etc. better to say so, to justify their existence and take away the fact that the womens tour is a 2 horse race. And is generally boring as a whole. "Television EXPOSURE"?!!!! I mean come on It is ESPN that airs all kinds of lame things to catch viewer attention. Horse shoe toss, Log rolling, truck pulls, and dont forget the celebrity cheerleaders vs pool players debacle. Oh yeah the men have to get their "you know what together". Shoot they got the Derby, the US Open. Would you rather see a womens tournament with a field of C class players than attend that? I would personally pass up a womens tournament for a Joss tour match or a West Coast Pechauer or even a Sacramento Hard Times Jamboree where you can see some real pool. You call Karen Corr thrilling. Last year in Sacramento I saw Rodney Morris vs Jose Parica vs Santos Sambajon vs Max Eberle vs Scott Frost. Then late nite action with Kid Delicious or a Bucktooth. That was thrilling! Dont blame "The Men". It is societys lust for glitz and glitter. You all dont really believe that Britney Spears can sing better than the lowest choir member at the MET? She justs shows more flesh. I dont meant to cut down anybody making a living but it is not "The Men". It is our love of the "fake" and not the "real"
It is the mens PBA Camel tour that brought me and many back to pool. It is Efren, Jose, Johnny, Buddy, Grady, etc. who make me want to go to the local pool hall and travel across the country attending events. Lets give them credit. They dont have to do anything for the public, or the merchants, or the pundits at Billiards Digest anything other than play great. It is they that have to do something for the great men players.
By the way as much as Don Mackey is maligned. I fell he did a lot for the players. And he is the only sport commisioner that has ever returned personal calls to the fans directly. Talk to Nick Varner, Kim Davenport, and Pat Fleming. Mackey did a lot for the game that stills ring today.
It is the mens PBA Camel tour that brought me and many back to pool. It is Efren, Jose, Johnny, Buddy, Grady, etc. who make me want to go to the local pool hall and travel across the country attending events. Lets give them credit. They dont have to do anything for the public, or the merchants, or the pundits at Billiards Digest anything other than play great. It is they that have to do something for the great men players.
By the way as much as Don Mackey is maligned. I fell he did a lot for the players. And he is the only sport commisioner that has ever returned personal calls to the fans directly. Talk to Nick Varner, Kim Davenport, and Pat Fleming. Mackey did a lot for the game that stills ring today.
Yobagua, while I will be the first to admit that watching a match between two top male players is 10 times more exciting than watching some of the WPBA matches that have been on TV, I would be willing to bet that Cuetec and Brunswick are loving that the WPBA has all of that TV time.
I wonder how many Cuetec cues are sold every time Allison wins a tournament with her cue.
The top male players are struggling for the small amount of TV time they have available in an attempt to try to get sponsorship.
Most players can't afford to get out there and play in all of the pro events on their own dime and they aren't going to get prospective sponsors attention very easily without that TV time.
Wait until people in the industry start seeing Rodney's performance at Mosconi Cup. If he doesn't have a new sponsor by June (or Fury doesn't market the hell out of him), I will be shocked. But he got that TV time and he made the most of it.
Mike
I wonder how many Cuetec cues are sold every time Allison wins a tournament with her cue.
The top male players are struggling for the small amount of TV time they have available in an attempt to try to get sponsorship.
Most players can't afford to get out there and play in all of the pro events on their own dime and they aren't going to get prospective sponsors attention very easily without that TV time.
Wait until people in the industry start seeing Rodney's performance at Mosconi Cup. If he doesn't have a new sponsor by June (or Fury doesn't market the hell out of him), I will be shocked. But he got that TV time and he made the most of it.
Mike
Mike my post was about this smugness that the WPBA is the end all and that the men "dont have their thing together." Well lets have someone make a clear analysis of that. The men right now have the greatest thing going and that is they have a bunch of great players right now. from the seniors like Sigel, Hall, Varner, to the youth like Frost, Owens, Franks, to the Europeans like ,Immonen, Hohmann, Soquet, to the Asians like Reyes, Parica, Takahashi, Chao, to the Latinos like Martinez, Morro, Dominguez, I could go on. Its not them we should criticize but somewhere else. Stop yanging about the mens pros but about the parasites who try to attach themselves to it. I have been in the Television and Motion Picture industry for 38 years and I dont think tv time is the answer. TV and the merchants wil use you so long as they and they alone can make the bucks off the top. But once you stop making them money you will be out on the street in a flash. I think it all has to start with the fan base. It is the people and masses who have to demand from the owners of Media and the products to support the sport.
yobagua said:
Sorrry, Yobagua, but the UPA has destroyed men's pool in the United States and is continuing to do so.
A good example is to look at the self-proclaimed president of the UPA who is having a dinner to honor himself and the other members of the UPA, who just happen to be the president of the UPA's friends.
The UPA has discriminated against players who are unable to sign their legally binding contract as well as the unbelievable personal beef between the UPA president and Earl Strickland preventing Earl's participation.
The UPA ranking points are not adhered to by the UPA, as well as its very rules that are not followed by high-ranking UPA administrative staff.
I agree with everything else that is in your post, Yobagua, but when it comes to men's pool in these United States of America, the dilemma continues all the way to the Bike Event in L.A. that will honor the UPA "good old boys." The women's organization does not have these kinds of issues thwarting the advancement of women's pool in America.
The UPA is a men's pool country club. Mediocre players need not apply, and if you are a "good" player and are unable to sign the legally binding contract, you are BANNED from the UPA events and any other independent event the UPA attempts to take over with threats of non-attendance of its members.
I can see the UPA awards dinner now. The Emperor's New Clothes comes to mind.
ManlyShot
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Gremlin said:
Hear, hear, Gremlin. The UPA Tour championship is promoted by Dragon Productions, as are the MAJORITY of tournaments on the tour, with the exception of those who, as you so correctly state, were threatened with non-attendance of its members.
I sincerely hope Allen Hopkins does not allow the UPA to sanction the pro event at Valley Forge. This has become a must-see event for many pool enthusiasts and players alike. What makes this event successful is not the men's pro tournament, though. It is the amateur bar players who come in droves to attend this magnificant expo.
Why will there not be a women's pro event at Valley Forge? Is this something new?
ManlyShot
JMB said:
JMB, I happen to believe that the majority of television viewing audience would rather watch Sarah, Allison, Ewa, Karen, Vivian, Melissa and players like them. I'd sure as hell rather watch these professional women competing than, as an example, the president of the UPA because, if men's pool does make it to television, that's who you will be watching. The UPA is a good old boys club, make no mistake about it!
Now, as far as action, JMB, granted, that's a different animal. As far as Efren spotting Allison the 6 and the break, I don't think Efren is a shoe-in to win. But, of course, UPA members, such as Efren, are prohibited from gambling at tournaments in accordance with the UPA rules when they sign their legally binding UPA contract. I wonder who all those guys are gambling at these tournaments who appear to resemble UPA members!
THANK GOD, BCn is going to cover the Derby City Classic event, and I hope they continue to provide this type of coverage and take over. ESPN has really dropped the ball (IMO). The UPA can't ruin the Derby City Classic.
ManlyShot
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manlyshot said:
Beginning last year the WPBA event was dropped. IIRC the Hopkins' could not justify paying the fee the WPBA was charging.
Such a shame.
I am not going to get into an argument with senior members like you or the Gremlin. You both seem to be avid and honest fans of pool. I dont have the greatest knowledge of the workings and politics of the present pool world. But I have constantly seen the "mens tour" be put down when so many have to be thankful of it and are profiting off of it while latching on to the hems of the skirts of the WPBA. (Listen up Billiards Digest) Now the WPBA is not without its problems either from my understanding. I cite their recent lawsuit with their ex COO. Their position against gambling yet have their tournaments at Casinos.
IMHO the womens tour is a lot of flash and sex and missing balls. Thats me. But if you really love pool the "mens tour" is showing the greatest pool playing that has ever been around. When I am at a WPBA tournament I can empathize with a lot of the women as they seem to be going through what I go through, an amateur. I also feel I can give 90% of them a good run for their money. (Maybe thats why they are so popular.} But when I watch a Archer or Varner or Neils Feijen I know that is something special.
As far as the UPA goes I thank them for bringing the event at the Bicycle club to LA which for a big city has not had a major tournament for a long time. I know I live there and am always flying off to somewhere else to see good pool playing or buying all the accustats tapes. God knows ESPN dont air it. (Race to 7?????!!!!! Give me a break) Now as far as CW goes every sport needs a leader, a commisioner. Unfortunately they have to be a Human and humans make mistakes. Since he is still young I am hoping he will correct some of them. But every tour will have its problems. People are pissed with Tommy Kennedy, Allen Hopkins and Mike Zuglan for this reason or that. So what???!!!! They are busting their butts putting themselves on the line bringing pool to us
This discussion need to go further but we just cant go around saying the men need to get their thing together and that the women are perfect. No! We need to organize a fan based support group concept. Demand networks to carry our sport properly. Demand merchants to have legitimate pool in our interests or we will not purchase their products. Have clubs like they do in England that support their local talent and have match play against cross town opponents. My local pool hall owner is making over $10,000 a week in receipts and does nothing for the players. No tournaments no nothing. These are the kinds of thing we should address in my humble opinion.
IMHO the womens tour is a lot of flash and sex and missing balls. Thats me. But if you really love pool the "mens tour" is showing the greatest pool playing that has ever been around. When I am at a WPBA tournament I can empathize with a lot of the women as they seem to be going through what I go through, an amateur. I also feel I can give 90% of them a good run for their money. (Maybe thats why they are so popular.} But when I watch a Archer or Varner or Neils Feijen I know that is something special.
As far as the UPA goes I thank them for bringing the event at the Bicycle club to LA which for a big city has not had a major tournament for a long time. I know I live there and am always flying off to somewhere else to see good pool playing or buying all the accustats tapes. God knows ESPN dont air it. (Race to 7?????!!!!! Give me a break) Now as far as CW goes every sport needs a leader, a commisioner. Unfortunately they have to be a Human and humans make mistakes. Since he is still young I am hoping he will correct some of them. But every tour will have its problems. People are pissed with Tommy Kennedy, Allen Hopkins and Mike Zuglan for this reason or that. So what???!!!! They are busting their butts putting themselves on the line bringing pool to us
This discussion need to go further but we just cant go around saying the men need to get their thing together and that the women are perfect. No! We need to organize a fan based support group concept. Demand networks to carry our sport properly. Demand merchants to have legitimate pool in our interests or we will not purchase their products. Have clubs like they do in England that support their local talent and have match play against cross town opponents. My local pool hall owner is making over $10,000 a week in receipts and does nothing for the players. No tournaments no nothing. These are the kinds of thing we should address in my humble opinion.
manlyshot said:
The casinos can afford it.
I'm sure Hopkins could afford it, but he still figured to lose money. It was strictly a business decision I suppose.
yobagua,
I think you have many valid points in your argument and I also feel many people have your opinion. The women are not perfect and neither are the men. That is society. No one is perfect. And yes, the glitz and glamor may get the women where they are. But, I guess it is working for something. I agree that the men should get something. They are the best players in the world. But you also have to respect the women as well. You have to maybe not respect them at the same level as the male players but a little respect would be good. Yes, some of the players are "less than average" but there are good players as well. But yet there are still world champions, US Open champions, etc. All of the women are trying to get to the level of play as the men and it might not happen for a million years but until them you could recognize them as professionals in their area of womens pool. And as a female player I don't hold any contempt for the men players. I think there is no reason they are not put in the spot light for the good that they do. I would love to watch Efren and Earl playing on ESPN. I think success for the men and women both at the same time could do nothing but help the game of pool and I hope it happens sometime in the near future. Just my opinion.
Sarah
I think you have many valid points in your argument and I also feel many people have your opinion. The women are not perfect and neither are the men. That is society. No one is perfect. And yes, the glitz and glamor may get the women where they are. But, I guess it is working for something. I agree that the men should get something. They are the best players in the world. But you also have to respect the women as well. You have to maybe not respect them at the same level as the male players but a little respect would be good. Yes, some of the players are "less than average" but there are good players as well. But yet there are still world champions, US Open champions, etc. All of the women are trying to get to the level of play as the men and it might not happen for a million years but until them you could recognize them as professionals in their area of womens pool. And as a female player I don't hold any contempt for the men players. I think there is no reason they are not put in the spot light for the good that they do. I would love to watch Efren and Earl playing on ESPN. I think success for the men and women both at the same time could do nothing but help the game of pool and I hope it happens sometime in the near future. Just my opinion.
Sarah
I have watched a few WPBA televised events..
Why is first Place in a TELEVISED ESPN match 10,000? That's WEAK! If the promoter has to put up 10 or 20k? just to have the WPBA, where is ALL the ca$h? Brunswick, Cue-Tec, and other sponsors kick in, WHERE"s the $$$$$$$$$$?
Do the women get televised more because of sex appeal?
Why does the crowd clap EVERY shot? Dead in the hole, and applauds?
I am happy POOL is on TV!
I think more BCn coverage should be on ESPN! BCn's Online Vids are 10 times better in production and value then most the pool I see on TV.
Maybe the pool on the PC asspect will prove to ESPN and any other affiliates that there is value in GOOD production. Support It, Use it, YOU WILL LOVE IT in the END! BilliardClub.net
Just some Thoughts
Brady
Why is first Place in a TELEVISED ESPN match 10,000? That's WEAK! If the promoter has to put up 10 or 20k? just to have the WPBA, where is ALL the ca$h? Brunswick, Cue-Tec, and other sponsors kick in, WHERE"s the $$$$$$$$$$?
Do the women get televised more because of sex appeal?
Why does the crowd clap EVERY shot? Dead in the hole, and applauds?
I am happy POOL is on TV!
I think more BCn coverage should be on ESPN! BCn's Online Vids are 10 times better in production and value then most the pool I see on TV.
Maybe the pool on the PC asspect will prove to ESPN and any other affiliates that there is value in GOOD production. Support It, Use it, YOU WILL LOVE IT in the END! BilliardClub.net
Just some Thoughts
Brady
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Sarah
Anyone who devotes their life to their profession in order to live out their dream you have to respect. But the critical eye to determine what is good or bad has nothing to do with that. Just because the show Friends is a popular show and each regular on that show makes a $Million an episode doesnt mean I have to watch them or consider them great artists and actors. I dont. The men have done some outstanding things in the game that outsiders will not recognize.WHat the Filipinos have brought into it with their kicking game. What the guys like Earl has done for 9 ball rack running. What the boys from the south has brought with their bank game. This is an exciting time for pool. Dizzying to say the least. I just dont want to hear how its the "men" who are at fault for the state of pool. Give them some credit and dont take the credit away from them if you have some success. The Japanese have a saying. "It is because of you I am what I am". We have a lot to thank to the men for the greatness of the game today. The merchants, tv producers, fans etc should remember this.
Let me end with just one thing to think about. A couple of years back I flew to NY to attend the National straight pool tournament. It had a Mens and a Womens division. All the men played and conducted themselves great. The men ran in the 100's often, even those qualifiers from local tourney's like Danny Barouty played marvelous. On the other hand the women were a joke. Except for Loree Jon Jones, Alison, and Shin Mei Lu from China showed any kind of straight pool knowledge. In my opinion most of them showed no respect for the fans and the game as most of them were just winging it. I dont think this was progress at all. I guess this is why Accustats after filming the matches had no womens bouts in their catalogue.
Anyone who devotes their life to their profession in order to live out their dream you have to respect. But the critical eye to determine what is good or bad has nothing to do with that. Just because the show Friends is a popular show and each regular on that show makes a $Million an episode doesnt mean I have to watch them or consider them great artists and actors. I dont. The men have done some outstanding things in the game that outsiders will not recognize.WHat the Filipinos have brought into it with their kicking game. What the guys like Earl has done for 9 ball rack running. What the boys from the south has brought with their bank game. This is an exciting time for pool. Dizzying to say the least. I just dont want to hear how its the "men" who are at fault for the state of pool. Give them some credit and dont take the credit away from them if you have some success. The Japanese have a saying. "It is because of you I am what I am". We have a lot to thank to the men for the greatness of the game today. The merchants, tv producers, fans etc should remember this.
Let me end with just one thing to think about. A couple of years back I flew to NY to attend the National straight pool tournament. It had a Mens and a Womens division. All the men played and conducted themselves great. The men ran in the 100's often, even those qualifiers from local tourney's like Danny Barouty played marvelous. On the other hand the women were a joke. Except for Loree Jon Jones, Alison, and Shin Mei Lu from China showed any kind of straight pool knowledge. In my opinion most of them showed no respect for the fans and the game as most of them were just winging it. I dont think this was progress at all. I guess this is why Accustats after filming the matches had no womens bouts in their catalogue.
I completely agree with you. The men started the game and are more successful. I do not blame the men for anything and I am sorry that people do blame the men. I think things are starting to turn around and the coverage of the big tournaments and the Mosconi Cup have been incredible. I wish the women could have such a good production team. Anyway, thank you for acknowledging that you respect someone who has a goal and has the strength to follow a dream, no matter what the level. I agree that means you don't have to watch or even say that you like it. Everyone is entitled to that.
In response to Gremlin, I just watched the women play at Chinook Winds Casino, in Oregon. It was excellent to watch and later a few of the girls hung around and played some with people in the APA tourney in conjunction with theirs until 1-2 in the morning. Pool is great to watch and the women were perfect. But give me the Derby City and watching the men and the action upstairs. Wow! Now that should be televised with live cameras catching the gambling action as well. That should be on BCn 24/7!
Sarah you have made a new fan I will always be looking for you at tournaments, (yes I do go to womens events to support any pro pool) and cheering you on.
Terry I am with you 100%. I think if they just aired a challenge match on the air between pros like Earl and Efren or Rodney and Mika in its entirety. Like a race to 15 for $20,000 you could get the same ratings if not better then what ESPN is getting now for the dumb nonsense they are airing. What about Grady's idea for a ring game? George Fels said it best. "Pool is tamper proof"! Dont mess with it. Show it as it should and the people will come. Whoever thought that a bunch of guys sitting around with cowboy hats and bermuda shorts play Poker would be such a draw. We dont need show biz celebrities, cheerleaders, or sexy babes. Lets get back to the basics. Its right there before our eyes.
Terry I am with you 100%. I think if they just aired a challenge match on the air between pros like Earl and Efren or Rodney and Mika in its entirety. Like a race to 15 for $20,000 you could get the same ratings if not better then what ESPN is getting now for the dumb nonsense they are airing. What about Grady's idea for a ring game? George Fels said it best. "Pool is tamper proof"! Dont mess with it. Show it as it should and the people will come. Whoever thought that a bunch of guys sitting around with cowboy hats and bermuda shorts play Poker would be such a draw. We dont need show biz celebrities, cheerleaders, or sexy babes. Lets get back to the basics. Its right there before our eyes.
manlyshot said:
Consider the fact that there are THREE members with seats on BOTH government bodies (the "UPA Executive Board" AND the "UPA Rules Committee")...Charlie Williams, Max Eberle and Jack Maginnis.
Now consider this section of the "UPA Code Of Conduct":
Section 5. Appeals of Disciplinary Actions
(a) Members accused of disciplinary violations may appeal decisions of the Rules committee to the Board of Director’s, which may over-rule the action of the Rules Committee by a two-thirds majority vote of the Board of Directors voting at the meeting. The Rules Committee Members shall not vote at the appeal hearing, nor shall they discuss the case with any Board Members prior to the appeal hearing.
Conflict of interest? A "clique" with a clear stranglehold on professional pool? Nah, just a group of self-serving guys who are trying to make money off the game at the expense of nearly all professional pool players.
The downward spiral continues...
PoolMouse
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Thank you yobagua. You will have to introduce yourself whenever we happen to be at the same tournament. I agree with you that a gambling match should be shown. There would be so much emotion and excitement. I think it would be a very eye-opening experience for many.