AZ Instruction - The Stroke???

I was always taught to take a glass coke bottle and lay it on the table. Then practice hitting the back of the bottle by going through the neck without hitting the sides of the opening. I believe Buddy Hall used this method or came up with it...not sure. I find that the fewer fingers I have on the cue with my non-bridge hand, the better. The lighter the touch, the more control I have over my cue.
 
Scaramouche said:
http://www.azbilliards.com/instructional/b4.cfm

The idea of throwing a bean bag may assist the feel of a good stroke.

But does a picture of a bent wrist and a thumb on top give the right message to new players?

And a followthrough that ends at the chest is does not happen in a cue stroke.
Click to expand...


Why doesn't a follow through end at the chest? I am just curious if you say it can't be done, or you don't follow through that far? I am just curious why you say it doesn't happen in a stroke?

I don't agree with the thumb on top, but your wrist should bend throughout the motion of the pendelum stroke.
 
Scaramouche said:
http://www.azbilliards.com/instructional/b4.cfm

The idea of throwing a bean bag may assist the feel of a good stroke.

But does a picture of a bent wrist and a thumb on top give the right message to new players?

And a followthrough that ends at the chest is does not happen in a cue stroke.
Click to expand...

The thumb is not on top of the cuestick. Reread the part where the description is a "hand hanging loosely, pointed down at the table". That would put the thumb on the side of the cue. The natural finish position for a pendulum swing always ends with the grip hand on the chest, or near the armpit (because that's the way your arm works). This is a very natural movement, and the most easy one to adopt, for a more consistent and repeatable stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
In a good stroke, the forearm should be about perpendicular to the table surface at the time of contact, so unless you follow through really far, your hand should not reach your chest on most shots. If your hand does reach your chest, you might be holding the cue too far forward, or you could be stroking properly, but following through way further than most people. JMHO.
 
during my lesson with Mark Wilson he told me more than once that my hand should pretty much end up right at the chest area at the end of the stroke.

DCP
 
Scott Lee

desert1pocket said:
In a good stroke, the forearm should be about perpendicular to the table surface at the time of contact, so unless you follow through really far, your hand should not reach your chest on most shots. If your hand does reach your chest, you might be holding the cue too far forward, or you could be stroking properly, but following through way further than most people. JMHO.
Click to expand...


Well Scott Lee is an instructor, and so is RandyG. They both have told me that it should end up in the chest, and when my stroke is in prime possition my right peck gets sore from shooting a lot of pool. That is because if I follow through correctly I am always hitting it. If you think you don't have to then maybe your stroke is weird, or you don't know how to stroke. I have been watching many great players and most all of them almost end up in that possition if they are using the pendelum stroke. I think I will stick with what the instructors and the AZ billiards stroke has to say, cause it is right on the money.
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
during my lesson with Mark Wilson he told me more than once that my hand should pretty much end up right at the chest area at the end of the stroke.

DCP
Click to expand...

Seems to assume that one's chest is nearly horizontal. Most aren't. If the hand ends up on such a chest, I see a "snow shoveling" stroke with one's tip ending up a couple of feet above the table. Is that recommended?

IMHO, a follow-through follows the line of the shot, no detours. For a center-ball "level" stroke, the wrist will have to flex down; the elbow will have to extend; and the shoulder joint will have to drop. Try it and see.
 
Dhakala said:
Seems to assume that one's chest is nearly horizontal. Most aren't. If the hand ends up on such a chest, I see a "snow shoveling" stroke with one's tip ending up a couple of feet above the table. Is that recommended?
Click to expand...

If your bent over a pool table and your follow through hits your chest then the tip of your cue will be pointed down just like Scott Lee said. Or did you not bother to read all the posts?


Dhakala said:
IMHO, a follow-through follows the line of the shot, no detours. For a center-ball "level" stroke, the wrist will have to flex down; the elbow will have to extend; and the shoulder joint will have to drop. Try it and see.
Click to expand...

If your doing all that everytime then I would doubt you would be very consistent. If your stoke comes from the penelum swing that comes natural from the arm then the follow through of the hand will be near your chest. If you don't believe the BCA instructors in here, then I guess your not going to listen anyway.

RandyG teaches the exact same stroke as the article in AZ teaches. He even teaches "SPF" That is Set Pause Finish for any of you that don't already know.

Anyway, just like every aspect of this game there are different ways to do everything, but this way is the easiest to learn by far.

I am all about easy, cause it gives me less to mess up, and it makes me a more consistent player.
 
desert1pocket said:
In a good stroke, the forearm should be about perpendicular to the table surface at the time of contact, so unless you follow through really far, your hand should not reach your chest on most shots. If your hand does reach your chest, you might be holding the cue too far forward, or you could be stroking properly, but following through way further than most people. JMHO.
Click to expand...

You're correct that, in a good stroke, the forearm should be perpendicular to the table, at the point of contact. A pendulum swing is a very natural swing, which doesn't necessitate an elbow drop (or any significant elbow movement at all). When you finish the stroke to a natural conclusion, your grip hand will be close to, or touching your chest. Consider the movement of a full American military salute, where the hand concludes at the forehead. Another example is a curl with a dumbell. This is exactly the same movement as the pendulum pool swing, except underhand. If you stand more upright, the hand may be a bit lower, but still close to the same area. This is just the way your arm works, with the least movement. The distance of followthrough past the CB will be different for many players...from as little as a couple of inches, to perhaps 8-10"...based on body style, stance, and some other factors. We help each player find the "natural" (read: correct) place to grip the cue FOR THEM.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
At the end of the back swing there is a tiny pause, almost imperceptible in most players, that allows the stroke to transfer from going back to going forward. This is where the biceps take over control of the cue from the triceps that execute the backstroke.

This part of the article is total BS. The biceps should not take control of the cue. Relax the triceps and the weight of the cue and your arm causes it to come forward naturally. If you try to control it with the biceps, that's how you become a ballbanger. The only role the biceps should play is flexing at the end of a long follow thru, since that happens naturally. Biceps= bad for the stroke IMO.
 
Lmao

So your saying that the cue just goes forward on it's own? No way in heck, if that was the case then no body would have to worry about a stroke.

When you swing it forward the biceps are doing the work, if you don't believe it then you shouldn't believe any of that article.


:eek:
 
Dhakala said:
Seems to assume that one's chest is nearly horizontal. Most aren't. If the hand ends up on such a chest, I see a "snow shoveling" stroke with one's tip ending up a couple of feet above the table. Is that recommended?

IMHO, a follow-through follows the line of the shot, no detours. For a center-ball "level" stroke, the wrist will have to flex down; the elbow will have to extend; and the shoulder joint will have to drop. Try it and see.
Click to expand...

I must disagree. I make it a point to finish every stroke. (when you finish your stroke, follow through happens) My elbow doesn't drop, my shoulder doesn't even take part in the stroke, my grip hand ends up at the right side of my chest, the tip of the cue is touching, or close to touching the table, and believe it or not, my stroke is straight. I, along with Scott, Randy, Cane and many other instructors have students all over the country who have found significant improvement in their games by incorporating this particular stroke into their game. I recently got an e-mail from a student who came to me as an APA 5 about 8 months ago. His e-mail this month told me he is now an APA 9. He credits it to practicing the things we went over in class...primarily the pendilum stroke. It's hard to argue with that kind of results.
Steve
 
Scott Lee said:
You're correct that, in a good stroke, the forearm should be perpendicular to the table, at the point of contact. A pendulum swing is a very natural swing, which doesn't necessitate an elbow drop (or any significant elbow movement at all). When you finish the stroke to a natural conclusion, your grip hand will be close to, or touching your chest. Consider the movement of a full American military salute, where the hand concludes at the forehead. Another example is a curl with a dumbell. This is exactly the same movement as the pendulum pool swing, except underhand. If you stand more upright, the hand may be a bit lower, but still close to the same area. This is just the way your arm works, with the least movement. The distance of followthrough past the CB will be different for many players...from as little as a couple of inches, to perhaps 8-10"...based on body style, stance, and some other factors. We help each player find the "natural" (read: correct) place to grip the cue FOR THEM.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I watched some shorter players this evening, and I stand corrected. I am 6'4" tall and have very broad shoulders and ape length arms, so when I follow through my wrist doesn't come to my chest. I now realize that this is not the case for all body types. The important things IMO are contacting the ball when forearm is straight up and down, and not moving anything above the elbow.
 
Dhakala said:
Seems to assume that one's chest is nearly horizontal. Most aren't. If the hand ends up on such a chest, I see a "snow shoveling" stroke with one's tip ending up a couple of feet above the table. Is that recommended?

IMHO, a follow-through follows the line of the shot, no detours. For a center-ball "level" stroke, the wrist will have to flex down; the elbow will have to extend; and the shoulder joint will have to drop. Try it and see.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a lot of things moving. I have been told by several instructors and many great players that the only things moving during the stroke should be from the elbow down, and the wrist should not flex, but rather be as relaxed as possible. I had a bad habit of dropping my shoulder that I spent over a year correcting.
 
You're only showing your ignorance with this kind of post

cuetechasaurus said:
At the end of the back swing there is a tiny pause, almost imperceptible in most players, that allows the stroke to transfer from going back to going forward. This is where the biceps take over control of the cue from the triceps that execute the backstroke.

This part of the article is total BS. The biceps should not take control of the cue. Relax the triceps and the weight of the cue and your arm causes it to come forward naturally. If you try to control it with the biceps, that's how you become a ballbanger. The only role the biceps should play is flexing at the end of a long follow thru, since that happens naturally. Biceps= bad for the stroke IMO.
Click to expand...

I guess with all the other things you're an expert in, it includes kinesiology and kinesthetic movement too, huh? The tricep pulls the cue back during the backswing, and the bicep pulls it forward, during the stroke delivery. There has to be a momentary pause, at the end of the backswing, to allow a smooth transition to the forward stroke. Some players pause a millisecond, and others pause up to a few seconds. This has nothing to do with grip pressure. You might consider learning something from people who have actually studied this...as you obviously have not.:rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
The tricep pulls the cue back during the backswing, and the bicep pulls it forward, during the stroke delivery.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
NOT if you use your shoulder as the pivot point ala Davis.:eek: :eek: :eek:
Or you could keep your arm still and just sway your body back and forth.:D
Come on Scott, you need to cover all bases.:D
 
are you trying to sound smart by saying kinesthetic movement? LOL

Scott Lee said:
I guess with all the other things you're an expert in, it includes kinesiology and kinesthetic movement too, huh? The tricep pulls the cue back during the backswing, and the bicep pulls it forward, during the stroke delivery. There has to be a momentary pause, at the end of the backswing, to allow a smooth transition to the forward stroke. Some players pause a millisecond, and others pause up to a few seconds. This has nothing to do with grip pressure. You might consider learning something from people who have actually studied this...as you obviously have not.:rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing about the pause, I just included that into my quote so people could read it in full context. My argument is about the bicep involvement.

Scott, please put aside your massive, bulging, and grossly protruding ego for a second and do a simple test.

Get into your stance like you are down on a shot, but without a cue. With your bridge hand, hold on to both your bicep and triceps, now take a full backstroke. You will feel the triceps flexing while your arm pulls back. Your bicep will tighten also. Again imagine you are holding a cue and you are going to do a nice, smooth, but firmly struck stop shot. Apply a little more pressure on your bicep with your thumb so you can feel what the muscle is doing. If you have a nice smooth stroke, your bicep will remain relaxed throughout the forward stroke until the very end. If you don't, you will feel your bicep flex and remain flexed throughout the stroke. That is called muscling the cue. The bicep should play a role at the beginning of the forward stroke by creating the desired speed of the stroke. After that the muscle should relax and gravity should do the rest. Make sense?

There is a reason why top players and instructors make a point that on the majority of the shots, they let the weight of the cue do the work. If you are muscling the stroke, which is controlling it with your bicep, you are not letting the weight of the cue do the work. You are forcing the cue forward instead of releasing it. Top players with the best strokes release their stroke. Ballbangers muscle it.

I didn't make this up, this information has been around for a long time. By the way, I learned most of this from Max Eberle. Would you like to have a power stroke-shot contest with him? Hell no you wouldn't. And I don't give a crap how long you've been teaching and how much you think you know. If your game can't stand up to the calibur of a player like Max, you should stick to teaching beginners. I hate to have a war of words with you like this, but don't think I'm gonna sit there and let you call me ignorant, especially when you go on the attack first and put words in my mouth. Next time why don't you check your stupid ego at the door before you attack someone on subjects like this.
 
Sorry, but I must agree with Scott. The bicep moves the stroke forward. On softer shots, it doesn't take much energy, on harder shots it takes more. If all you do is let the weight of the cue determine how hard you stroke, your speed would always be the same. You don't have to force the shot, but you have to control it. That's what the bicep does. Check back with Max and see if he doesn't agree.
Steve
 
bicep

I am going to agree with Scott Lee and Pool Teacher here. They know what they are talking about cause they studied it, and if you really check it out your bicep is relaxing on the back stroke dude!!!!
 
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