back stroke

[NINEBALLART]

Like Jerry Briesath says in his school. "Take your practice strokes. Stop at the cue ball. Make sure thats where you want to hit the object ball. Bring the cue back slow and accelerate forward and thru the cue ball."
Does Tiger Woods bring his driver back fast? Does Peyton Manning bring his arm back fast? Does Randy Johnson bring his arm back fast?
In golf, you bring the club back slow and controlled. Then bring it fast forward. Pool is the same.
Of course watching the many players, most do this. But there are exceptions who go fast and it works for them. Slow and controlled and accelerate forward is a good place to start. If it doesn"t work, so be it. Do something else...

 

[cuetechasaurus]

So Maybe the problem is that my stroke is not disciplined? I take the cue back and forward at a very quick rate. I will try slowing it down. I have a real problem pausing at the back. Just doesn't seem natural

Most likely your stroking arm is not properly aligned with your bridge. Remember your elbow is a fixed hinge, and your shoulder is a ball hinge. You want to eliminate the movement from the shoulder and just use the elbow on the back stroke. If your stroking arm's natural straight path is not lined up with your bridge, it's impossible to have a straight stroke without using your shoulder and twisting your arm to compensate for the cue 'wanting' to go off line. This is most likely the solution to your problem.

You can feel how crooked your stroke 'wants' to go in your grip. As you go back and forth, you will feel pressure changes in your grip hand from one side to the other. This is an indicator that your stroking arm/bridge hand are out of line. You can only feel this if you use most of your hand to grip the cue. If you use a 1 or 2 finger grip with nothing else touching, including the palm, you won't be able to tell. Sorry if this sounds confusing, it's the best I can describe it in text.

 

[Flex]

Most likely your stroking arm is not properly aligned with your bridge. Remember your elbow is a fixed hinge, and your shoulder is a ball hinge. You want to eliminate the movement from the shoulder and just use the elbow on the back stroke. If your stroking arm's natural straight path is not lined up with your bridge, it's impossible to have a straight stroke without using your shoulder and twisting your arm to compensate for the cue 'wanting' to go off line. This is most likely the solution to your problem.

You can feel how crooked your stroke 'wants' to go in your grip. As you go back and forth, you will feel pressure changes in your grip hand from one side to the other. This is an indicator that your stroking arm/bridge hand are out of line. You can only feel this if you use most of your hand to grip the cue. If you use a 1 or 2 finger grip with nothing else touching, including the palm, you won't be able to tell. Sorry if this sounds confusing, it's the best I can describe it in text.

If you (Nineballnut) haven't already seen Bert Kinister's Advanced Fundamentals tape, I suggest you do so.

He basically teaches how to align your body, according to your own skeletal structure, to shoot straight. He starts out with a tough drill shooting long straight in shots one handed. He says, and he's pretty on the mark with this, that once you manage to do this drill ten times in a row, that you can't do that by luck, or chance. What really happens is you develop a feel for what it's like to hit allowing your skeleton, not your muscles, to do the work, like a hinge as mentioned above. After doing this drill, which he says may take you six hours to do (took me something like two hours, but that's beside the point) he'll have you shooting straight in pure center ball shots. You'll get the feel of what it's like to shoot pure center ball shots, if you haven't already. You probably have, but doing Bert's drill will groove this into your mind. There's a certain sound and feel to this shot. To do this drill well, you'll need to build a stroke, and this drill will create that stroke for you.

Top notch stuff.

Flex

 

[pooltchr]

Pooltchr

Andrew hit the nail on the head. Your analogy exists with a rather profound inaccuracy, as in this case we are concerned with a human arm, not a car. If you are perplexed about the difference between an “arm” and a “car” many people find books called Dictionaries rather helpful in distinguishing between confusing words. And you think my response was arrogant???
Before you tried to dispose of my advice with a curt and completely inaccurate analogy, I was attempting to offer some advice that may conflict with yours, but would allow our troubled poster another viewpoint. I have found that when my back stroke is rather slow when compared to my forward stroke, I cannot be as accurate in my hit on the cue ball. I think this is because some kind of a jerk must to occur to accelerate the cue from a really slow speed (or a stop) to a high speed. I think this jerk causes inaccuracy. I agree any jerk in the stroke is going to cause problems. I believe that trying to change the direction of motion 180 degrees without pausing first will increase the opportunity for a jerk to occur. Thus, I have found a faster back and forward stroke to be more accurate when attempting to impart a high velocity on the cue ball. Naturally, I use slow practice strokes where the shots call for them. However, there have been plenty great players with slow back strokes, and this is why I think speed of practice strokes is less important and more about what an individual player is comfortable with. This is also why I think your response to my thread was arrogant and out of place, as I do not necessarily disagree with you.

The more important concept that I hope this poster will consider, is to try new pre-shot routines/ stances, as I think this can be a saving grace for any player.

Also, next time you match up with Efren, you might want to tell him you are a BCA certified instructor; he’ll probably become so terrified of getting his ass kicked that he’ll just drop his cue and run, forfeiting the post money and leaving you with a new cue. Efren is a professional player...I am not. I am an instructor. There is a difference.

kollegedave

I still hold the belief that the speed of the backstroke has no impact on the speed of the forward stroke.
Steve

 

[NineBallNut]

Thanks to all of you for your advice. I am going to video tape myself and break down what's really happening and start back from the basics again. I'm sure I've developed many bad habits in the last few years of shooting. I haven't been practicing much, more or less just playin or knocking balls around.

Thanks again, Rob

 

[Andrew Manning]

I still hold the belief that the speed of the backstroke has no impact on the speed of the forward stroke.
Steve

Hi Steve,

As I said in a previous post, I feel that in my stroke (I'm not saying this necessarily happens to everyone) a slow backstroke causes my arm to tighten. Especially in pressure situations. A pause at the back of the stroke adds to the tightening. If I do all that and then stroke forward, my stroke doesn't accelerate smoothly or quickly.

I find my personal best results seem to be when I draw the cue back smoothly but quickly, and although I try not to rush the transition from back to forward (because as you say this would be "jerking" the cue), I don't stop moving for any longer than it takes me to stop the cue going backward and smoothly start moving it forward. Although there is, as so many instructors point out, an instant where the cue isn't going backward or forward, there's nothing I would call a "pause", because I don't make it any longer than I have to. As soon as I'm done stopping the back stroke, I'm starting the forward stroke.

I'm interested to hear your response to how slow deliberate movements and pauses can introduce tension, since I've heard many BCA instructors, including the mostly highly sought-after ones, advocate a slow backswing and pause for every player, and I feel it's not necessarily best for me.

-Andrew

 

[pooltchr]

Hi Steve,

As I said in a previous post, I feel that in my stroke (I'm not saying this necessarily happens to everyone) a slow backstroke causes my arm to tighten. Especially in pressure situations. A pause at the back of the stroke adds to the tightening. If I do all that and then stroke forward, my stroke doesn't accelerate smoothly or quickly.

I find my personal best results seem to be when I draw the cue back smoothly but quickly, and although I try not to rush the transition from back to forward (because as you say this would be "jerking" the cue), I don't stop moving for any longer than it takes me to stop the cue going backward and smoothly start moving it forward. Although there is, as so many instructors point out, an instant where the cue isn't going backward or forward, there's nothing I would call a "pause", because I don't make it any longer than I have to. As soon as I'm done stopping the back stroke, I'm starting the forward stroke.

I'm interested to hear your response to how slow deliberate movements and pauses can introduce tension, since I've heard many BCA instructors, including the mostly highly sought-after ones, advocate a slow backswing and pause for every player, and I feel it's not necessarily best for me.

-Andrew

Andrew,
I completely understand that the same methods are not best for every individual. When someone feels they have a problem, we look for solutions that have worked in the past. Many of my students have found a smoother stroke by slowing the backstroke and pausing before starting forward. It will NOT work for EVERYONE, but I don't tell anyone the must do it...just try it and see if it helps.
My personal stroke doesn't have a long pause either...but it is there and the slower backstroke seems to make the transition in direction much smoother.
I don't think a slow backstroke and pause introduces tension...just the opposite.
If what you are doing is working, then by all means, stick with it. If you came to me and described a problem keeping your stroke straight, then I might suggest slowing the backstroke and adding a short pause...but as the saying goes...If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I never tell any student they must do something...I do offer suggestions that could be beneficial. It's ultimately up to each player to decide what works best for them.
Steve

 

[Flex]

Andrew,
I completely understand that the same methods are not best for every individual. When someone feels they have a problem, we look for solutions that have worked in the past. Many of my students have found a smoother stroke by slowing the backstroke and pausing before starting forward. It will NOT work for EVERYONE, but I don't tell anyone the must do it...just try it and see if it helps.
My personal stroke doesn't have a long pause either...but it is there and the slower backstroke seems to make the transition in direction much smoother.
I don't think a slow backstroke and pause introduces tension...just the opposite.
If what you are doing is working, then by all means, stick with it. If you came to me and described a problem keeping your stroke straight, then I might suggest slowing the backstroke and adding a short pause...but as the saying goes...If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I never tell any student they must do something...I do offer suggestions that could be beneficial. It's ultimately up to each player to decide what works best for them.
Steve

I asked Don "The Preacher" Feeney about strokes, and he showed me several different ones. The "Filipino" stroke, where the shooter keeps his stroke in continual motion in small circular movements, he said was good since the muscles in the arm are continually moving and he showed me how this stroke can develop tremendous power. He stroked that way for a while and unleashed a powerful draw stroke to demonstrate it. Larry Schwartz is now saying that these Filipinos may really be on to something...

Flex

 

[DEACON]

Your on the money with this comment. I had been steering my stroke for a long time but now aim/pause before pulling the trigger. esp on my shots using english. when the cue is in line after the shot, everything usually goes in and a good amount of english will take the desired affect. Its a beautiful thing. Deacon

 

[Andrew Manning]

Andrew,
I completely understand that the same methods are not best for every individual. When someone feels they have a problem, we look for solutions that have worked in the past. Many of my students have found a smoother stroke by slowing the backstroke and pausing before starting forward. It will NOT work for EVERYONE, but I don't tell anyone the must do it...just try it and see if it helps.
My personal stroke doesn't have a long pause either...but it is there and the slower backstroke seems to make the transition in direction much smoother.
I don't think a slow backstroke and pause introduces tension...just the opposite.
If what you are doing is working, then by all means, stick with it. If you came to me and described a problem keeping your stroke straight, then I might suggest slowing the backstroke and adding a short pause...but as the saying goes...If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I never tell any student they must do something...I do offer suggestions that could be beneficial. It's ultimately up to each player to decide what works best for them.
Steve

Thanks Steve, I understand your position much better now.

I had always found it funny that if you ask an instructor how to place your feet, they'll tell you (correctly) that it differs from person to person, and if you ask an instructor how to align your head, they'll tell you it differs, but it seemed to me that if you ask an instructor how to pull back the cue, they don't say it differs from person to person. It seems they always say "slow back swing, pause at the back".

Then they may say something like "all players pause, good players pause on purpose", or "set, pause, finish, freeze", and it sounds like they're saying that's the only right way to do it. But I do understand that you suggest a player try something that has worked for other players in the past. It's just that it always came across to me as an axiom, not a suggestion.

-Andrew

 

[pooltchr]

Andres,
No problem. I taught a class with Randy and Cane last year. One evening after classes, the instructors were all discussing the day, and I believe it was Randy who pointed out that some of the different things we covered would be incorporated into 4 out of 5 of the student's games. We fill the plates for the students...it's up to them to decide what they want to eat.
Steve

 

[BRKNRUN]

I still hold the belief that the speed of the backstroke has no impact on the speed of the forward stroke.
Steve

I just wanted to jump in and say that I agree with the above satement...

There really is no purpose of the back stroke other than to load the release....Just as in Golf...You can start your shot from the fully loaded position and still hit a great shot... Why don't we??? Because its easier to aim in the "unloaded" position.

Why do we worry about speed of backstroke (or for golf backswing)...The speed of the back stroke can be used to set the tempo and fluidity of the all important forward stroke.

A quick jerk back of the cue is usually deemed no good as it creates a jabbing motion on the release and will tend to cause a forward cue speed that has hit its top speed way to early, at the same time a backstroke that takes two weeks to complete is also no good. rigger sets in on the muscles and they have to kick start to get going again.....the jerking kick start motion has a similar effect as a too fast back stroke...(the term I use for this is called the yips most golfers will know what the yips are)

Your muscles need to work in rythum to have a fluid stroke... That rytum is different for everybody...(you can usually define the rythum of a persons stroke by the rythum of their personality)

Set Pause Finish Freeze is an excellent basis to work from regarding establishing the proper tempo for an individuals stroke.The same exact method has been taught in golf for years......However, the timing and speed of those ultimately will be determined by your individual personality...

You can "force" yourself to slow down or speed up, but when you get on a roll or under pressure...your "real" tempo will take over...

Bottom line...When the game is on...If your thinking about Set, Pause, Finish Freeze, or conciously thinking about how far back to take your back stroke, or how fast or slow your back stroke needs to be...you are now distracted from what you should really be focused on and your opponent has gained an advantage.

My motto is .... "Practice thoughtfully...Play thoughtless" ...

Hopefully people undersand the true meaning behind that statement....This does not just apply to stroke mechanics...This applies also to what your thinking about your opponent.

 

[TheBook]

A person asks a question. A few BCA trained instructors give their advice and now many players argue about the advice they give. This is like the advice given to the person wanting a mentor. Don't argue with the instructor after you are told something. I am sure that your advice is correct but we all have opinions.

My question to the BCA instructors is who, what, and how did the BCA decide what the best method to stoke a cue is? I am sure that they didn't just make it up.

 

[pooltchr]

My question to the BCA instructors is who, what, and how did the BCA decide what the best method to stoke a cue is? I am sure that they didn't just make it up.

I don't know how the whole program was developed, but if you ever get a chance to talk with RandyG, ask him about all the research he and Doc did back when they were starting the pool school. I can assure you, it was quite intensive.
All I know is when I went to school, my game improved drastically. That is why I now teach it...it was just too impressive not to share it with others.
Steve