Back to popping the CB on the break
- Thread starter bdorman
- Start date
Exactly what I meant. "...one of the hardest breaks ever recorded in competition."
Find another "recorded break in competition" that is faster. And even if you do, that still won't refute what I said. (Unless I claimed De Luna's was the hardest break ever recorded in competition, which is not what I said.)
EDIT: And when I said "recorded", I simply meant recorded on video.
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I always break from the box. In 9-ball I'm at the corner of the box (1 diamond in, 2 diamonds up) and for 10-ball about 1-1/2 diamonds in. Breaking from a rail feels much less stable to me than breaking with my hand on the table surface.
I don't think I'm dropping my elbow because I'm pretty much standing straight up at the end (or maybe even midway through) of my break.
I aim for center ball to 1/2-tip low. Since I'm striking slightly down on the ball it imparts a small amount of backspin. I'm certainly not 100% accurate and can easily see the result of hitting 1/2-to-full tip high -- the CB rolls forward when it stops bouncing, but not by nearly as much as it would if I hit high with a more level stroke.
I've only hit the CB off the table a handful of times in 2-3 years. But I can see the result of hitting off-center of the 1-ball: the pop goes to the right or left instead of straight up. I think it doesn't scratch as much because it's using energy to go up instead of sideways or backwards (there's still some backwards or sideways, of course, but it's mitigated by the energy used going "up."
IMHO the biggest effect is from elevating my closed bridge from a traditional level-with-the-table bridge to kind of a bridge on stilts (like a 3-point Philippino bridge). The elevated bridge has two advantages for me: 1) it raises the cue tip about 1/2" higher so I can hit centerball but still be hitting slightly down on the CB, and 2) it allows me to raise my body during the backswing and use by body-speed in the forward stroke (keeping my palm on the table with a traditional closed bridge made it hard to raise my body anytime during the break-stroke).
Earlier in the thread someone mentioned wrist action...and that's 100% correct. During practice strokes I always make sure I've got a loose grip and flexible wrist. Without that, it's like throwing a baseball "like a girl."
If you play on bar tables just bridge off the rail and aim low on the cueball, and work from there. If the cueball hops you are good, if it draws back, start adjusting higher in the cueball.
When I do a lesson and teach people how to break, it doesn't take long to teach them how to do this consistently.
I will be back in des Moines doing clinics and lessons in the near future.
For 8 ball do you mean the side rail or long rail? I could see side rail for 9 ball, but not 8ball. Correct me if this is wrong. Did you get a good turnout when you came to Des Moines recently? Big Dogs is a good place to play with their diamond tables.
When I break in nine ball I place the cue ball just slightly to the left of the spot (no more than a couple of ball widths) and place my tip between a half and one tip width below center. If I hit directly into the one ball the cue moves back very close to the center of the table with little or no bounce. I seldom make a break without dropping a couple of balls and they spread nicely. I am holding the cue close to level (I believe) since I'm far enough away from the rail to allow for it. I used to bark my knuckle on the rail on occasion, but haven't done that now for a long time...
With that break the nine will head for the corner often enough to sink it every 20-30 times.
With that break the nine will head for the corner often enough to sink it every 20-30 times.
So in my opinion (being that I have a good break that pops the ball when I break a ten ball or 8 ball rack) is that when you properly pop the cue ball due to speed of the cue and a particular rate of elevation, the pop allows the rack to disperse with more action.
Now with that said, the key words were speed and elevation.
Now with that said, the key words were speed and elevation.
IMHO the spread of the rack is dependent on the how well the rack was solidified, the speed of the cue ball & the direction it was hit toward the rack. The control of the cue ball is dependent on where the cue strikes the cue ball, the speed & direction of the cue ball & where the cue ball hits the rack. "Pop or no pop" is a chocolate & vanilla personal preference. What ever you have the confidence & ability to do is okie-dokie with me.
Good Luck to all.
Ah, but Jeff is not hitting the norm "1" tip of top that most preach. As you rank up your speed, the tip of the cue can actually be more centered on the hit.
And if you'd notice, throughout all these threads. Intentionally jacking up your backhand to get the pop means you don't have the power. There's a video out there of a Russian guy breaking(not Jeff). It doesn't look like the guy strikes the ball very hard, but the cue ball bounces up into the light. When you watch the video a second time, you realise how much he's jacked up into the break.
That's pretty much it. Releasing the wrist when in the proper stance makes the cue ball pop due to speed, not the angle of the cue into the cue ball.
That's because good breakers break with a lot of speed; and since slight cue elevation is required to clear the rail, the CB hops a large distance and hits the head ball while slightly airborne (often after one bounce).
Popping (slight CB hop after the break) is a consequence of an accurate and powerful hit with a near-level cue. Popping isn't something people should try to create artificially by adding cue elevation, because this can have negative consequences, and result in less breaking power. (Although, if the slight elevation increase allows for a more accurate and square hit for some reason, then it could be worthwhile.)
Video demonstrations and detailed explanations backing up all of these statements can be found here:
cue ball hop, pop, and squat resource page
Enjoy,
Dave
That's correct. With that break, the combination of fast speed, having the cue as level as possible, and having a larger distance to the lead ball allows the CB to hit the lead ball squarely without being airborne, resulting in excellent energy transfer to the rack with almost no "pop." On that break, I would guess that the CB is airborne the entire way to the rack, after the initial jump (due to the cue elevation), with the CB landing just before hitting the lead ball. That is pretty much ideal (assuming the cue is as level as possible), except for the unintentional sidespin he imparts.
Regards,
Dave
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I am doing the "jump/break" also. But I'm trying to land the cue ball at the exact same time as it hits the head ball. Hard to do but marvelous effects when you can. If you practice your breaks on a regular basis, you will start to see a pattern show up on your cloth. Small burn marks will appear where the cue ball is landing. Adjusting speed to elevation is the key. SVB at the 2014 USBTC was bridging off of the rail and was breaking relatively soft. I think he was controlling his cue ball landing point.
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You're right. SVB does a jump-break trying to hit the 1 ball square at the moment it is bouncing up. It's hard to do everytime, but when it's right it's an awsome break. I can do it on the BB almost evrytime, but on the 9' table not so much. Johnnyt
I'm pretty consistent on a BB also. Tougher on my 8 foot. My landing pattern tends to be 6 inches in front of rack on the 8 foot. My average speed is 18.5 -19.5. Been working on gaining some speed without taking away accuracy. I think if I get to 20 mph average, my 8 foot breaks should improve. I would have to start from scratch on a 9 foot.
I don't know how to post the links, but yesterday there was a Mike Dechaine thread with video of him from a tournament . He was breaking hard, but certainly not his hardest. He was, however, popping that cue ball every time and bringing it back two or three diamonds. IMO he could've controlled the cb a little better, but he broke really well in that video.
Then there is the super slow mo video of Shane's break. IMO, the key to Shane's break is how efficiently he delivers the cue ball to the rack. The slow mo vid makes it look like the tip of the cue stays on the cb for so long that it is actually lifting the cb off the table rather than bouncing it. And I think that his cue is about as level as it gets. But what makes Shane so good at the break is, he changes it accordingly.
At the usbtc this year he was mostly breaking soft, but at times (maybe at a different table or in a different round) he would break hard and pop the cb.
I recently played on a new 7' diamond pro-am with new cyclops balls and it didn't take much to get the rack movin.
Also, there are times where Shane is popping the cue ball with (or at least it seems) very little power. So I believe there is quite a bit of technique involved in this whole popping deal. But Shane couldn't explain it in his breaking tutorial, which was disappointing.
Ben
Edit: the Dechaine thread is still on the first page
Then there is the super slow mo video of Shane's break. IMO, the key to Shane's break is how efficiently he delivers the cue ball to the rack. The slow mo vid makes it look like the tip of the cue stays on the cb for so long that it is actually lifting the cb off the table rather than bouncing it. And I think that his cue is about as level as it gets. But what makes Shane so good at the break is, he changes it accordingly.
At the usbtc this year he was mostly breaking soft, but at times (maybe at a different table or in a different round) he would break hard and pop the cb.
I recently played on a new 7' diamond pro-am with new cyclops balls and it didn't take much to get the rack movin.
Also, there are times where Shane is popping the cue ball with (or at least it seems) very little power. So I believe there is quite a bit of technique involved in this whole popping deal. But Shane couldn't explain it in his breaking tutorial, which was disappointing.
Ben
Edit: the Dechaine thread is still on the first page
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No doubt that action on the rack does not = pop on the cue ball but when your looking at ten ball I honestly think it has a factor. Again, popping the cue ball with out a follow spin means not enough speed was generated from the cue.
Regardless. What I focused on to get a good 10 ball break was speed and obviously a square hit.
Regardless. What I focused on to get a good 10 ball break was speed and obviously a square hit.
Another good thing to think about is that hitting the ball hard is not the same as hitting the ball with a lot of speed.
Thanks for posting the deLuna break -- it's amazing.
After watching it I realized that his cue height when breaking off the rail is about the same as mine using an elevated, closed bridge. When breaking off the rail it seems like there would be no way to have a "maximum level" cue (the closer the CB is to the rail, the less level the cue can be; the rail simply forces it to be at a more downward angle).
Just to reiterate, for me popping the CB is not directly related to the quality of the break. The CB pop is an outcome of the elevated bridge which allows me to get the palm of my hand off the table surface, which allows me to get more of my body into the break. The fact that it causes the CB to pop is incidental. (Also, I don't elevate the butt-end of the cue; I see no advantage in trying to do that).
Thanks for everyone's input, especially Dr Dave because it's always helpful know what the physics dictates should happen.
After watching it I realized that his cue height when breaking off the rail is about the same as mine using an elevated, closed bridge. When breaking off the rail it seems like there would be no way to have a "maximum level" cue (the closer the CB is to the rail, the less level the cue can be; the rail simply forces it to be at a more downward angle).
Just to reiterate, for me popping the CB is not directly related to the quality of the break. The CB pop is an outcome of the elevated bridge which allows me to get the palm of my hand off the table surface, which allows me to get more of my body into the break. The fact that it causes the CB to pop is incidental. (Also, I don't elevate the butt-end of the cue; I see no advantage in trying to do that).
Thanks for everyone's input, especially Dr Dave because it's always helpful know what the physics dictates should happen.