TheThaiger
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For once, we're in agreement, Jeffrey. The world has gone mad - and people are lapping it up.
Background Checks and Certified Instructors
- Thread starter FranCrimi
- Start date
For once, we're in agreement, Jeffrey. The world has gone mad - and people are lapping it up.
Really?
Do I understand you correctly? If I was arrested for a non-violent crime in 1974, I should be denied certification? And "minor moving violations" like coming to a stop in a cross walk would require "a life long ban"?
Do I understand you correctly? If I was arrested for a non-violent crime in 1974, I should be denied certification? And "minor moving violations" like coming to a stop in a cross walk would require "a life long ban"?
I brought up the issue of background checks. I am in favor of them, particularly for instructors who teach children.
Where does an organization draw the line? I would not even venture to guess. I would imagine that's a complicated issue that requires legal advice.
???
Are you also a dance instructor? Pretty nifty how you side-step my question.
How can you be in favor of something without knowing what it is? Are you in favor of carte blanche, whoever institutes the checks decides what the criteria are for enforcement?
What about instructors who gamble? Or use curse words?
If it's pedophiles that you're concerned about, say so, rather than make a blanket suggestion about background checks. And if you're really concerned about pedophiles, I'd suggest protesting against the Disney Channel, rather than worry about billiard instructors.
Are you also a dance instructor? Pretty nifty how you side-step my question.
How can you be in favor of something without knowing what it is? Are you in favor of carte blanche, whoever institutes the checks decides what the criteria are for enforcement?
What about instructors who gamble? Or use curse words?
If it's pedophiles that you're concerned about, say so, rather than make a blanket suggestion about background checks. And if you're really concerned about pedophiles, I'd suggest protesting against the Disney Channel, rather than worry about billiard instructors.
No not really.
You would have barely cleared my 40 year statute of limitations, only to be screwed by a speeding ticket.
Isn't that how we do things here?
Background Checks
I agree with the people that said it shouldn't be mandatory. I think it shows extra attention to detail having it done though.
There are a few karate schools around my town. My school is different from the others as the instructors have a background check performed. When mine was done, it was just the basic criminal background check. I can't tell you how many parents have come to me saying that's one of the main reasons they chose our school.
I agree with the people that said it shouldn't be mandatory. I think it shows extra attention to detail having it done though.
There are a few karate schools around my town. My school is different from the others as the instructors have a background check performed. When mine was done, it was just the basic criminal background check. I can't tell you how many parents have come to me saying that's one of the main reasons they chose our school.
Personally I was very surprise when Fran's thread pointed out that a background check was not part of the process when one is certifying to the public that someone is certified to 'teach' in the public realm on a one to one basis. Keep in mind that this a bit of a dispargement on the governing body(s) rather than the individual intructors.
Way back when the Private Schools & City Recreation Depts. started requiring that coaches be certified & part of that process would be a Criminal Background Check, I felt just like some of you. I said to myself, 'I'm not a criminal why should I be required to submit to & pay for a background check on myself.' Their answer was simple, 'You don't have to, but if you don't, you won't be certified & you won't be coaching in our system.'
We lost some coaches from with in the City Recreational Dept. A couple failed the check & a few just withdrew. It was later learned that at least one of the ones that withdrew was a former sex offender. Keep in mind that that is from just one(1) medium sized city rec. dept.
As it has pointed out it is as much about protecting the certifying bodies from legal & civil liability as it is about 'protecting' the clientele. One bad apple can cast a wide shadow on an organization & especially if it's more than just one. But...as I also said if it can prevent just one(1) sexual assault or an armed robbery gone bad, by limiting the use of this credential to garner credibility & access, then all of the 'aggrevation' & work will be well worth the effort.
Pool Halls all have a rather seedy character or two or more that can play pool rather well & might get the idea that he or she can do better charging to give lessons to people that don't really know him or her than he or she can make from trying to hustle up some money in the hall where he or she is 'known'.
Given the state of & the general public's perception of the game, I don't know if the game or the ranks of the instructor profession could survive a scandal of that nature that might get national attention. It is much more in regards of a preventative meassure than as a means to punish anyone for past transgressions.
That being said, I would think that it would be up to each certifying organization to determine their criteria upon legal advice. I would imagine that certain crimes such as homicide, sexual assault, armed robery, grand theft, etc. would be prohibitive & also result in life time bans, while other lesser offenses would simply be subjected to time statutes of limitations.
Are Criminal Background Checks necessary? Probably not. Woulld they add credibility & a marketing edge? I would certainly think so. Could they be a saving grace with regards to a potential 'catastrophy'? Again, I would certainly think so.
As Mr. JoeW has stated, it would seem logical that certificate language would need to be modified, etc. to at the very least include a discalimer & possibly suggest that clientle do their own due diligence regarding criminal backgrounds.
If a governing body wants to garner the prestige of such then it only seems logical that it must also bear the responsibilty that comes along with that prestige. Can it be a can of worms? Certainly. But I certainly think it would be better to get & keep the worms out of the apple barrel before the whole barrel of good apples is ruined.
As always, all of the above are just from my personal experience & are just my humble opinions.
Regards to All of You Good Apples &
Way back when the Private Schools & City Recreation Depts. started requiring that coaches be certified & part of that process would be a Criminal Background Check, I felt just like some of you. I said to myself, 'I'm not a criminal why should I be required to submit to & pay for a background check on myself.' Their answer was simple, 'You don't have to, but if you don't, you won't be certified & you won't be coaching in our system.'
We lost some coaches from with in the City Recreational Dept. A couple failed the check & a few just withdrew. It was later learned that at least one of the ones that withdrew was a former sex offender. Keep in mind that that is from just one(1) medium sized city rec. dept.
As it has pointed out it is as much about protecting the certifying bodies from legal & civil liability as it is about 'protecting' the clientele. One bad apple can cast a wide shadow on an organization & especially if it's more than just one. But...as I also said if it can prevent just one(1) sexual assault or an armed robbery gone bad, by limiting the use of this credential to garner credibility & access, then all of the 'aggrevation' & work will be well worth the effort.
Pool Halls all have a rather seedy character or two or more that can play pool rather well & might get the idea that he or she can do better charging to give lessons to people that don't really know him or her than he or she can make from trying to hustle up some money in the hall where he or she is 'known'.
Given the state of & the general public's perception of the game, I don't know if the game or the ranks of the instructor profession could survive a scandal of that nature that might get national attention. It is much more in regards of a preventative meassure than as a means to punish anyone for past transgressions.
That being said, I would think that it would be up to each certifying organization to determine their criteria upon legal advice. I would imagine that certain crimes such as homicide, sexual assault, armed robery, grand theft, etc. would be prohibitive & also result in life time bans, while other lesser offenses would simply be subjected to time statutes of limitations.
Are Criminal Background Checks necessary? Probably not. Woulld they add credibility & a marketing edge? I would certainly think so. Could they be a saving grace with regards to a potential 'catastrophy'? Again, I would certainly think so.
As Mr. JoeW has stated, it would seem logical that certificate language would need to be modified, etc. to at the very least include a discalimer & possibly suggest that clientle do their own due diligence regarding criminal backgrounds.
If a governing body wants to garner the prestige of such then it only seems logical that it must also bear the responsibilty that comes along with that prestige. Can it be a can of worms? Certainly. But I certainly think it would be better to get & keep the worms out of the apple barrel before the whole barrel of good apples is ruined.
As always, all of the above are just from my personal experience & are just my humble opinions.
Regards to All of You Good Apples &
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This is EXACTLY my point in post #2 above. I don't think background checks should be mandatory at all for something like a pool instructor. It should be a *value added* option, that helps the pool instructor cement credentials.
But of course, we're going to have the NPR political types jumping in and adding a political bend to this, so I guess this goes with the territory.
-Sean <-- so sick of politics
I know what a background check is. I had one done on myself. Why wouldn't I know?
The question you're commanding me to answer is one I can't answer, and neither could the PBIA or the ACS or any cue sport organization without legal help. But just because someone can't give you and answer here and now doesn't mean that the issue shouldn't be researched.
FWIW, Donny, I seriously doubt that the PBIA will look into it and that you will have nothing to be concerned about.
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Personally I could care less about the background of an instructor. All I care about is his or her reputation as an instructor. That goes much further than if they were ever arrested for a DUI.
Sorry for misunderstanding
Sorry, for any misunderstanding. My question was intended to mean, if there's a background check, just what sins would justify un-certification?
Regarding the teaching kids point. When I've taught kids (at least in the past twenty years, their parents were there, usually because minors could not be there without them.
I still can't help but wonder about the definition of "sex offender" and "sex crimes". When I was 18, a police officer caught me taking a pee in the alley behind a bar (the rest rooms in the bar were out of order) at 2:00 am.
He told me that he could arrest me for "indecent exposure" and that I would have a "sex crime" on my record for life. He wasn't exaggerating, as I've learned reading about other cases.
I'm curious, have you heard of Certified Instructors committing sex crimes with students?
Sorry, for any misunderstanding. My question was intended to mean, if there's a background check, just what sins would justify un-certification?
Regarding the teaching kids point. When I've taught kids (at least in the past twenty years, their parents were there, usually because minors could not be there without them.
I still can't help but wonder about the definition of "sex offender" and "sex crimes". When I was 18, a police officer caught me taking a pee in the alley behind a bar (the rest rooms in the bar were out of order) at 2:00 am.
He told me that he could arrest me for "indecent exposure" and that I would have a "sex crime" on my record for life. He wasn't exaggerating, as I've learned reading about other cases.
I'm curious, have you heard of Certified Instructors committing sex crimes with students?
what exactly are you checking for?
Is there an all out ban on instructors with anything on there record or are you looking for drug convictions. Sex offences are another issue. To me a person wih several DUIs has a greater potential to hurt someone than a person who has a minor drug charge. Are misdemeanors acceptable cause I have a ton of disturbing the peace, public intox, unsafe start on a motorcycle ( burnouts), and a couple of assault and battery's (but they really deserved it). Im a biker and always will be , but I never hurt anyone that didn't deserve it. Ill give you the shirt off my back and ill always answer the call for help. But because some guy wants to feel better about himself, he wants me to have a background check to teach pool. Maybe you want to only allow instructors to where certain clothing and only teach on certain tables. Where does regulation end. And who is going to pay for all of this.
After you get instruction from a guy with a clean background check, are you only going to play with guys who submit to a background check. Should we limit sate tournaments to people with clean background checks. How about background safe pool halls.
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND ME IS I GOT CAUGHT, YOU DIDNT.
When you leave that fancy dinner and finish a whole bottle of wine, your driving under the influence. when you speed home after work on the express way, your breaking the law. When you cheat on your taxes, that's stealing.
My point is background checks are far from being an asset in the pool instruction industry. It can lead to nowhere good.
By the way, here in Chicago , everyday the city is paying people who were wrongfully prosecuted . Last week 23 million to be exact.
Is there an all out ban on instructors with anything on there record or are you looking for drug convictions. Sex offences are another issue. To me a person wih several DUIs has a greater potential to hurt someone than a person who has a minor drug charge. Are misdemeanors acceptable cause I have a ton of disturbing the peace, public intox, unsafe start on a motorcycle ( burnouts), and a couple of assault and battery's (but they really deserved it). Im a biker and always will be , but I never hurt anyone that didn't deserve it. Ill give you the shirt off my back and ill always answer the call for help. But because some guy wants to feel better about himself, he wants me to have a background check to teach pool. Maybe you want to only allow instructors to where certain clothing and only teach on certain tables. Where does regulation end. And who is going to pay for all of this.
After you get instruction from a guy with a clean background check, are you only going to play with guys who submit to a background check. Should we limit sate tournaments to people with clean background checks. How about background safe pool halls.
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND ME IS I GOT CAUGHT, YOU DIDNT.
When you leave that fancy dinner and finish a whole bottle of wine, your driving under the influence. when you speed home after work on the express way, your breaking the law. When you cheat on your taxes, that's stealing.
My point is background checks are far from being an asset in the pool instruction industry. It can lead to nowhere good.
By the way, here in Chicago , everyday the city is paying people who were wrongfully prosecuted . Last week 23 million to be exact.
Someone else pointed out that certification should state something to the effect that the holder is certified to teach in public pool rooms. That would place the BCA on a better footing in a potential law suit.
Instructors who want to teach privately need to reviewed in some way. My thinking here is about the BCA's liability.
Instructors who want to teach privately need to reviewed in some way. My thinking here is about the BCA's liability.
just rendered
I used to be a certified carpet cleaning tech (not that kind of carpet). I owned a carpet cleaning and airduct cleaning company and i remember the disclaimer on the cert said singing like ; this certification only certifies that John doe has completed the minimum requirements a specified by the IICRC. Didn't have any specifics at all.
I used to be a certified carpet cleaning tech (not that kind of carpet). I owned a carpet cleaning and airduct cleaning company and i remember the disclaimer on the cert said singing like ; this certification only certifies that John doe has completed the minimum requirements a specified by the IICRC. Didn't have any specifics at all.
What about requiring a certain number of documented recommendations from Pryor students. Or even offering up references. Most good instructors are expensive, so I would want to talk to someone who has taken lessons from the instructor before.
thelmstetter...All good instructors have plenty of documented recommendations. All most have to do is ask about someone here on AzB.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com