BackHand English (OMG not again) Sorry!

L

laser2507

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi

I read on this board from someone that using BHE and chanigng your Pivot works depending on which types of shots you are playing.

OE = longer bridge
IE = shorter bridge

To me this does not make sense. Cutting to the right using left hand english (OE) will throw the OB to the right more, so the longer bridge may well work and the cueball will slightly end up right of the aim line with a longer birdge (pivot). However for IE I think a longer bridge is still needed isnt it? THe ball will throw left and you would want to cueball slightly left of the aim line.

Am I wrong or confused?

BHE works extremely well for me, I just play by "fee", but I didnt understand completely what was trying to be said, and WHY:eek:
 
I only respod to threads about back hand English that have "BHE" abbreviated five or more times during the post. You only have it once. Sorry:(
 
that's better.....when shooting the ball I just use whatever feels like it's going to work....and don't worry about pivot points or anything else when I'm shooting....if I have the right spin and speed then I get what I want...
________
 
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laser2507 said:
Hi

I read on this board from someone that using BHE and chanigng your Pivot works depending on which types of shots you are playing.

OE = longer bridge
IE = shorter bridge

To me this does not make sense. Cutting to the right using left hand english (OE) will throw the OB to the right more, so the longer bridge may well work and the cueball will slightly end up right of the aim line with a longer birdge (pivot). However for IE I think a longer bridge is still needed isnt it? THe ball will throw left and you would want to cueball slightly left of the aim line.

Am I wrong or confused?

BHE works extremely well for me, I just play by "fee", but I didnt understand completely what was trying to be said, and WHY:eek:
Click to expand...
What you say seems to make sense to me.

For an OE shot, you would want to undercut the shot slightly to compensate for SIT (spin-induced throw). Thus lengthening your bridge away from cue's pivot point would cause the CB to squirt more in the desired direction such that it would undercut the shot.

As for an IE shot, the spin works in the opposite direction, so you want to overcut the shot a bit. I think the original poster just thought that a shorter bridge length would give the contrary result, since the OB would deviate in the other direction, or "squirt less" compared to a longer bridge length. But I'm guessing the original poster forgot that for an IE shot, you hit the other side of the CB, such that the squirt effects are opposite in direction of those compared to the OE case.

So yes, you still would want a longer bridge length on an IE english shot, IF your intent is to slightly overcut the OB to compensate for any SIT effects.
 
laser2507 said:
Hi

I read on this board from someone that using BHE and chanigng your Pivot works depending on which types of shots you are playing.

OE = longer bridge
IE = shorter bridge

To me this does not make sense. Cutting to the right using left hand english (OE) will throw the OB to the right more, so the longer bridge may well work and the cueball will slightly end up right of the aim line with a longer birdge (pivot). However for IE I think a longer bridge is still needed isnt it? THe ball will throw left and you would want to cueball slightly left of the aim line.

Am I wrong or confused?

BHE works extremely well for me, I just play by "fee", but I didnt understand completely what was trying to be said, and WHY:eek:
Click to expand...

The variables in using BHE are more complex than that.

Using IE on straightish shots and at lower speeds stands a better chance when lengthening the bridge.

One thing you need to understand is that a cut shot with IE basically has the same throw as a shot played with natural rolling spin. So the contact point on IE shots which are cut at 15 degrees or more at medium to firm speeds is the same. Hence you would bridge at the actual pivot point.

My own experimentation also indicates that squirt increases with speed. This is additional to the reduced swerve that occurs with more speed. And also the OB throw angle is reduced with speed.

Interestingly, with OE at speed the squirt increases and the increases speed reduces throw. Meaning that actually shortening the bridge may be necessary when playing with extreme power.

Note: While it's useful to know how bridge length effects BHE (as sometimes we are forced to bridge long or short) I find the most useful method when using BHE is simply to adjust my aim.

i.e. When playing medium speed OE I'll aim the pot a few degrees thick before I pivot. If playing a soft IE cut I'll aim to overcut before pivoting. If the speed is harder, I'll align normally.

I find after practicing this quite a lot I have learned to align them pretty much by feel. But it's useful to know how to calculate the system for shots that sometimes just don't feel right, or for when you start missing and you need to identify a reason (speed, alignment, swiping, swerve etc).

Check this article and video for more info on how throw is affected by various spins and speeds.
http://www.calcul8r.com/blog/_archives/2006/5/3/1930844.html

Colin
 
jsp said:
What you say seems to make sense to me.

For an OE shot, you would want to undercut the shot slightly to compensate for SIT (spin-induced throw). Thus lengthening your bridge away from cue's pivot point would cause the CB to squirt more in the desired direction such that it would undercut the shot.

As for an IE shot, the spin works in the opposite direction, so you want to overcut the shot a bit. I think the original poster just thought that a shorter bridge length would give the contrary result, since the OB would deviate in the other direction, or "squirt less" compared to a longer bridge length. But I'm guessing the original poster forgot that for an IE shot, you hit the other side of the CB, such that the squirt effects are opposite in direction of those compared to the OE case.

So yes, you still would want a longer bridge length on an IE english shot, IF your intent is to slightly overcut the OB to compensate for any SIT effects.
Click to expand...

You've described it well jsp,
The only thing I'd add, as I also stated in my last post, is the when the cut angle increases to around 10-15 degrees and the speed is firmer, the IE produces a similar throw angle to natural roll.

This was one of the surprise findings from my test video on throw that I linked to above. I found this information very valuable when applying IE.

It seems to be caused by the increase of relative speeds of the surfaces on contact.

I'm sure you've read all this before:o ..:D

Colin
 
Thanks for the input.

What confuses me is that, using my cues Pivot Point (Predator Shaft) of 11.8inches the cue ball lands exactly where it should in a stragiht line even if using left or right english.

Therefore, I normally only need to compensate for OB throw. IE if using left hand english then I can actually aim more right and pot the ball. Snooker players would disagree at this, but my deflection is minimal due to the stroke and the pivot point.

Of course, with extreme english I may "automatically" adjust, as you say, a hard hit will squirt more and swirve less.
 
laser2507 said:
Thanks for the input.

What confuses me is that, using my cues Pivot Point (Predator Shaft) of 11.8inches the cue ball lands exactly where it should in a stragiht line even if using left or right english.

Therefore, I normally only need to compensate for OB throw. IE if using left hand english then I can actually aim more right and pot the ball. Snooker players would disagree at this, but my deflection is minimal due to the stroke and the pivot point.

Of course, with extreme english I may "automatically" adjust, as you say, a hard hit will squirt more and swirve less.
Click to expand...

That seems too short for a predator shaft. The less squirt, the longer the pivot point.

Then again, I found the pivot point varies considerably with speed, and the length people measure depends a bit on the method they use.

For my cue, which I've tested against a Predator Z and found it had just a little more squirt, Around 14" seems to be the pivot point for a medium-firm stroke. Playing very hard it goes down to under 10" and softer shots are in the 20" range.

Though when playing soft in reality, the swerve and throw increase so much that aiming often needs to be guestimated according to the distance between CB and OB.

Colin
 
Colin, in one of your previous threads\posts oyu mentioned that if using tuck\roll the pivot point should be longer. Does this include for BHE? Are the two the same or different?

Im sure my predator is 11.8, it was very straight, it could possibly be 12", that was a medium stroke. Its annoying that hard shots need a shorter bridge, as naturally I like long strokes. I used to play with an 18" stroke and played very well, but that was years ago.. now Im focusing (or trying to) on the small things...

Its a strange system using BHE, because it either works well or mentally destroys me. If I miss a ball I blame my bridge lenghth, and it all gets worse... mentally destroying I tell you.
But when it works, it works effortlessly...
What a game!
 
just my opinion...

Colin...It's very obvious to me, as an instructor, how confused players are about inside and outside english. That's why I don't use those terms, in describing shots, and effects from spin. I'm positive that a ton of lurkers (let alone posters) are misinformed, to some degree. It would be better to use a cuetable diagram (or your own video clips), and substitute Right and Left, for your descriptions. Then you could accentuate the descriptions, by notating which shots are 'inside', and which are 'outside'.

Scott Lee
 
laser2507 said:
Colin, in one of your previous threads\posts oyu mentioned that if using tuck\roll the pivot point should be longer. Does this include for BHE? Are the two the same or different?

Im sure my predator is 11.8, it was very straight, it could possibly be 12", that was a medium stroke. Its annoying that hard shots need a shorter bridge, as naturally I like long strokes. I used to play with an 18" stroke and played very well, but that was years ago.. now Im focusing (or trying to) on the small things...

Its a strange system using BHE, because it either works well or mentally destroys me. If I miss a ball I blame my bridge lenghth, and it all gets worse... mentally destroying I tell you.
But when it works, it works effortlessly...
What a game!
Click to expand...

When you use tuck or roll (which is basically just swiping the tip across the line) it has a very significant effect I've found. Probably worth a few inches in pivot point length depending on the degree of swiping.

I will sometimes use a reverse swipe technique. For example, I'll put left hand english on the ball but my cue is moving left to right accross the line of the shot. This is especially useful for some softer inside english shots when my bridge length is restricted by the rail. I'm basically pushing the CB out wider so I can get enough cut angle. Doing it this way allows me to line up initially closer to the pot angle (maybe just for a jaw of overcut), but I know this will still be too thick a contact, so I reverse swipe during the stroke. Works like a charm for me. Much more consistant that aiming wider or trying to play the shot by feel.

It can be mentally confusing, especially if you're not predicting some of the variables right. But if you keep working on it it should become quite natural...at least for a good range of shots.

Colin
 
One more thing I'd suggest, is to combine BHE practice with a lot of natural roll potting practice. After all, if your initial alignment is not accurate, either the BHE won't work, or you'll start to get the wrong idea of how the BHE is actually working.

One drill I do is to scatter 10 balls around the table and pot them all with medium speed follow. Trying to pick out various angles and lengths of shot. Not just trying to clean up the balls. The purpose being to tune in the eyes for what I call the standard potting angle. i.e. Standard Throw.

Colin
 
laser2507 said:
"bhe" "bhe" "bhe" "bhe" "bhe"
:-)
Click to expand...

OK, now I can post.

Using BHE as much as any type of shot or stroke, is all, all about feel. Thinking and analyzing ect. will not get you very far. You have to shoot these types of shots hundreds of times to get the feel for the type of spin, deflection, squirt, etc. Again, sitting and trying to break down all of this ,what cue, how to compensate, pivot point bla bla bla...all I know are the results.
 
Gregg said:
... Thinking and analyzing ect. will not get you very far...
Click to expand...
I've read that the Air Force is now going to train its pilots by dropping them from B-52's and letting them learn whatever they need to learn on the way down. It eliminates months of classroom time, which in the heat of battle is useless anyway.

I think they got the idea on one of these forums.

Jim
 
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Scott Lee said:
Colin...It's very obvious to me, as an instructor, how confused players are about inside and outside english. That's why I don't use those terms, in describing shots, and effects from spin. I'm positive that a ton of lurkers (let alone posters) are misinformed, to some degree. It would be better to use a cuetable diagram (or your own video clips), and substitute Right and Left, for your descriptions. Then you could accentuate the descriptions, by notating which shots are 'inside', and which are 'outside'.

Scott Lee
Click to expand...

Hi Scott,
You're right. This language and decifering the discussion is a bit hard for many readers.

I plan to make video or series of videos that hopefully more clearly illustrates some of these ideas and how to apply them. Probably a couple of detailed articles will be useful as well. Then during these discussions there will be something to reference to.

Colin
 
I'd like to express my approval of the apology offered in the initial post.
 
What do you mean when you say aim far out and stroke in...

I tried this and missed completely :p

Ive seen busta cue like that, looks a bit offkey..

Also what would you say is the percentage of plyers using BHE as opposed to Parrellel.
 
Jal said:
I've read that the Air Force is now going to train its pilots by dropping them from B-52's and letting them learn whatever they need to learn on the way down. It eliminates months of classroom time, which in the heat of battle is useless anyway.

I think they got the idea on one of these forums.

Jim
Click to expand...

Nice!

I was just trying to convey that pool is a game of feel. This is why even top players spend so much time at the table.

I see people trying to break down the variations with joint types, ferrules, tips, shafts, pivot points, cloth, temperature, humidity, time of day, what they ate for breakfast, etc.

Sometimes you just have to dig in, line the balls up, and pocket a couple hundred balls using this type of BHE, and see what works for you.
 
Gregg I agree with you, only by hitting thousands of balls can you adapt and feel properly. But for me I only practise 2 times a week until I have my own table (hopefully just 2 moinths away now) so I have alot of mind games about my stroke and game. Its all my fault I know, I shouldnt let the mind games win.:mad:
 
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