Backhand English

predator said:
How well does BE work on small pockets?

For the past few days I've watched knockout rounds from 2005 WPC in Taiwan. Tight pockets, just 4 1/4 inches wide (nearly 5 inches last year) and guess what...most of the players with excessive movement in their stroke did not get very far, whether applying BE or not. Players steady strokes who use paralell english easily dominated. I don't think we'll ever see WPC being played on bigger pockets. Makes you think doesn't it?

you didn't pay much attention at all to the WPC matches its seems.

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
you didn't pay much attention at all to the WPC matches its seems.

VAP

Huh? What did I miss? Correct me if I'm mistaken, don't post with just a single sentence. Cheers.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Playing with inside english is definitely a weakness of mine and I plan to try some of the aiming systems mentioned to see what works best.

Snooker players avoid inside english like the plague, though english billiard players use it a lot.

In snooker, inside english can actually increase the effect of kicks (skid) and this nearly always results in a miss and lost position (shape).


I don't know beans about shooting snooker balls, just a little bit here and there about pool.

I did find this in the February 2005 issue of Billiards Digest in Mike Sigel's column about aiming, although he threw this in about english.

"You also have to hit the cue ball with the right type of spin on an angled shot. When cutting a ball to the RIGHT I feel that using a little RIGHT ENGLIGH is the ONLY way to get the most consistent results possible. When you cut a ball to your left, it's vice-versa, of course. I suggest one-half to one full tip's-width. When the shot is straight in, no English is required. Only for position play should this rule be altered".

So....take it for what it's worth. Work on that inside and don't worry about snooka......
 
predator said:
Huh? What did I miss? Correct me if I'm mistaken, don't post with just a single sentence. Cheers.

please list which players were using parrellel english and which players were using backhand english............

most of the time, unless you are standing right at the table analyzing them, or they are VERY obvious about it, you won't be able to see who is using backhand english.

VAP
 
Colin Colenso said:
Playing with inside english is definitely a weakness of mine and I plan to try some of the aiming systems mentioned to see what works best.

Snooker players avoid inside english like the plague, though english billiard players use it a lot.

In snooker, inside english can actually increase the effect of kicks (skid) and this nearly always results in a miss and lost position (shape). In US pool kicks don't have as much effect due to the larger heavier balls and the larger pockets. I rarely miss at pool due to kicks, but in snooker, it is a major concern and often the cause of a lost game.
Inside english can eliminate skid by increasing the speed of a cut, balls skid more at slight angles and slower rotational speeds. Bottom can reduce skids and a touch of outside, like you said, if played right will eliminate skids, but if played a little off can increase throw and or skid. But inside can also greatly reduce skids by increasing the cut speed of the actual contact, just like hitting the ball harder, or using an electric knife, LOL.

Bottom line is a lot of outside will often throw the ball a lot and a lot of inside will usually not throw the ball at all. Efren plays the way he does because it's easier to play that way.

unknownpro
 
drivermaker said:
And what happens if you're poltyrgeist challenged? I've never been able to see Casper either, except when he was printed out in the comic books.
Also, what happens if you misjudge the size of your ghost ball from 2 1/4" down to 2"....you'll miss the shot everytime. I can only see what I can see...I can't see what's not there and what I can't see. See?
Can you see the object ball? Imagine the ghost cueball is the same size, only white, and touching the object ball directly on line with the pocket. The size of the object ball gives you the size of the ghostball. Visualize, and hit one million balls, like Grady said, and you'll be seeing things just like us! LOL!

Kidding aside, the ghostball, along with tip aiming imo, is the key element to shooting pool. You should be able to imagine it. Otherwise you have nothing to aim for. Don't be afraid of the ghostball if you want to beat the ghostman.

unknownpro
 
unknownpro said:
Kidding aside, the ghostball, along with tip aiming imo, is the key element to shooting pool. You should be able to imagine it. Otherwise you have nothing to aim for.

unknownpro


You don't have to imagine ANY ghostball and I disagree that it's the key element to shooting pool. That's not even close to being a true statement.
There's also PLENTY to aim for whether you use the tip or not and ESPECIALLY aiming without ghosts. I kinda lean toward the tip most of the time, but not always.

I'm not into ghosts...I'm more into astronomy. I like full eclipses, half-moons, quarter moons, and pull-your-drawers-down-moons.

You might have been a "known" pro if you'd have understood and executed other methods beside "ghostball". (Btw...I don't need to worry about hitting a million balls...I exceeded that about three decades ago)
 
drivermaker said:
You don't have to imagine ANY ghostball and I disagree that it's the key element to shooting pool. That's not even close to being a true statement.
There's also PLENTY to aim for whether you use the tip or not and ESPECIALLY aiming without ghosts. I kinda lean toward the tip most of the time, but not always.

I'm not into ghosts...I'm more into astronomy. I like full eclipses, half-moons, quarter moons, and pull-your-drawers-down-moons.

You might have been a "known" pro if you'd have understood and executed other methods beside "ghostball". (Btw...I don't need to worry about hitting a million balls...I exceeded that about three decades ago)

Hey, I'm not knocking anybody, but I don't see how you're going to make a ball without putting the cueball through that spot where the ghostball is. Maybe you can explain that to me? I am known very well to the best pro players in the world. My philosophy is that if you have a system that works, it should always work, so you should always use the same system. It makes it simpler and easier, which is how the great players make it look so easy.

Since you are into astronomy, you know that Newton's laws work fine for most things here on earth but you have to get into the theory of relativity once you get to that next level of planets and stars, and even that may be further enhanced and refined by string theory to finally explain the force of gravity. Even though most people can't see the strings.

So why use something that works some of the time when you could use what works all the time, especially if it is the simplest method? In my physics classes I was taught to eliminate as many variables as possible, and that's the way I play applied physics too.

By the way, I was only making fun of myself and Grady (who I first heard the million ball quote from) good naturedly. I believe aiming with your stick is fundamental to pool because that's what you shoot with. Others may disagree. And they may be wrong. I also exceeded a million balls more than 3 decades ago and was a very good player before I had even heard of the term "ghostball", and I never used to aim with my tip, so I know there are other ways to play. But I have learned simple things in the last 15 years which improved my game and my consistency immensely, and I'm just trying to share them with others that are interested.

unknownpro
 
unknownpro said:
Inside english can eliminate skid by increasing the speed of a cut, balls skid more at slight angles and slower rotational speeds. Bottom can reduce skids and a touch of outside, like you said, if played right will eliminate skids, but if played a little off can increase throw and or skid. But inside can also greatly reduce skids by increasing the cut speed of the actual contact, just like hitting the ball harder, or using an electric knife, LOL.

Bottom line is a lot of outside will often throw the ball a lot and a lot of inside will usually not throw the ball at all. Efren plays the way he does because it's easier to play that way.

unknownpro
I was thinking more about 3/4 ball type shots using inside English. Here skids can be quite noticeable. With the cut shots, you may have a point re the spinning ball giving the balls less time to grip and the narrower contact angle. I'll have to study that one.

Draw shots tend to skid less that follow shots, it seems because on follow the balls are pushed down into the cloth, making the contact firmer.

I learned a bit playing with Pan Xiao Ting, (3rd in last year's Women's world champs). Whereas I try to power too many shots to get position, she regularly played inside english to come a couple of cushions for position.
 
Bob Jewett said:
... and I think I can follow three cushions for position without any swooping. Of course, until we can compare the two techniques -- your shot against my shot -- it's hard to say.

So, I tried the following shot: shot on a 4.5x9 GC3 with 4.25-inch pockets. (You can get two balls into the jaws only if you climb up on the table and jam them in with both feet.) Obect ball on the head spot. Cue ball about 10 inches away for a perfectly dead straight in shot to a head pocket. (If the placement is off a little you can do the shot by cheating the pocket.) I played with follow and side and could get the cue ball to go to either side and spin around the cushions. I aim the shot by bringing the stick down along the line it has to be on when I shoot and stroking straight back and straight through. I had no real problem shooting the shot without swooping.

Wayne, is there some other shot that you feel aim-and-swoop helps on?
 
unknownpro said:
Inside english can eliminate skid by increasing the speed of a cut,...
Actually, it's generally agreed that soft inside english is the worst possible choice if you want to avoid skid.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I learned a bit playing with Pan Xiao Ting, (3rd in last year's Women's world champs). Whereas I try to power too many shots to get position, she regularly played inside english to come a couple of cushions for position.

Of course, its the smart way to play position, #1 it's much easier to control speed plus you get closer to the next o/b.

Rod
 
Bob Jewett said:
So, I tried the following shot: shot on a 4.5x9 GC3 with 4.25-inch pockets. (You can get two balls into the jaws only if you climb up on the table and jam them in with both feet.) Obect ball on the head spot. Cue ball about 10 inches away for a perfectly dead straight in shot to a head pocket. (If the placement is off a little you can do the shot by cheating the pocket.) I played with follow and side and could get the cue ball to go to either side and spin around the cushions. I aim the shot by bringing the stick down along the line it has to be on when I shoot and stroking straight back and straight through. I had no real problem shooting the shot without swooping.

Bob, I don't even have to shoot the shot. I've shot it thousands of times either way, meaning either english. A tad off center, if needed, gets the cue ball around the table easy. Its a standard shot and up that close its easy.

Rod
 
unknownpro said:
I'm just trying to share them with others that are interested.

unknownpro


not sure if you check your PMs, i sent you one about a week ago asking you to share.........never heard back.

thanks

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
please list which players were using parrellel english and which players were using backhand english............

most of the time, unless you are standing right at the table analyzing them, or they are VERY obvious about it, you won't be able to see who is using backhand english.

VAP

They had some decent camera angles on Sky coverage, where you could clearly see cue movement. I'm sure I've seen follow through ended up little sideways on a few shots from Bustamante, Luat and Reyes, but not too many even from them.

Guys like Manalo, Wu, Mika, Chamat, Davis, Deuel and all the other Taiwan players were stroking straight as an arrow. Of course the method where one pivots around the bridge hand (tuck and roll?) and shoots straight again is a little bit is hard to detect, I agree.
 
unknownpro said:
but I don't see how you're going to make a ball without putting the cueball through that spot where the ghostball is. Maybe you can explain that to me? I am known very well to the best pro players in the world. My philosophy is that if you have a system that works, it should always work, so you should always use the same system. It makes it simpler and easier, which is how the great players make it look so easy.
unknownpro


If you've learned some things over the last 15 years that have been eye openers for you...then maybe over the next 2 or 3 years there could possibly be even more, don't you think? Or could it be that you've absorbed all of the knowledge that's out there with no more to come?

There have been threads here and on CCB about aiming. I suggest you do a search on CCB for the aiming thread that had the highest number of posts in the history of billiard forums and read through it.
Ghost ball has also been proven to be ineffective and incorrect at times. It is definitely not the end all to aiming nor the most effective.
If you would please, PM me and say who you are. I'd appreciate it.
 
predator said:
...
Guys like Manalo, Wu, Mika, Chamat, Davis, Deuel and all the other Taiwan players were stroking straight as an arrow. Of course the method where one pivots around the bridge hand (tuck and roll?) and shoots straight again is a little bit is hard to detect, I agree.

I'm pretty sure that "tuck and roll" is a swerve on the final forward stroke, a motion that I call "aim and swoop" to distinguish it from "aim and pivot" in which the final stroke is straight back and straight through.

The vast majority of top-level carom players, who use much, much more spin than most pool players, also come straight back and straight through. There are lots of videos available from Accu-stats and Kozoom that illustrate this.
 
Bob Jewett said:
So, I tried the following shot: shot on a 4.5x9 GC3 with 4.25-inch pockets. (You can get two balls into the jaws only if you climb up on the table and jam them in with both feet.) Obect ball on the head spot. Cue ball about 10 inches away for a perfectly dead straight in shot to a head pocket. (If the placement is off a little you can do the shot by cheating the pocket.) I played with follow and side and could get the cue ball to go to either side and spin around the cushions. I aim the shot by bringing the stick down along the line it has to be on when I shoot and stroking straight back and straight through. I had no real problem shooting the shot without swooping.

Wayne, is there some other shot that you feel aim-and-swoop helps on?

I have never said anything about aim-and-swoop. You mentioned somewhere that this is what people are referring to when talking about back-hand English but I would venture to guess that most people do not think of "aim and swoop" as backhand English.

Wayne
 
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