Backhand English

[nibrobus]

I've been reading this thread and tried BE last night. Seems to work very well once you get used to it. I have a question though; do you move your stroking arm to apply the english or do you just roll your wrist? I've seen people do it both ways and I was wondering what the easiest/most effective method would be.

 

[Egg McDogit]

I've been reading this thread and tried BE last night. Seems to work very well once you get used to it. I have a question though; do you move your stroking arm to apply the english or do you just roll your wrist? I've seen people do it both ways and I was wondering what the easiest/most effective method would be.

I twist my wrist and my arm kind of naturally follows and kicks out as well

 

[drivermaker]

I have been playing 43 years and have never heard
the terms you guys refer to, most players just make
up their own descriptions for a shot they do ...

Backhand english? Is that where you put the cue
behind your back to shoot .... lol

You've been playing for 43 years and DON'T know what backhand english or tuck and roll is or how to do it? Even if you opted not to use it for whatever reason (which doesn't make sense if you did), and continue to say that you're a "player" and have been around...you should know by now.

I guess some guys play and learn over 43 years, and others play 43 years X 1, they just keep doing what they learned in the first year over and over again and that's it.

 

[DaveK]

I have been playing 43 years and have never heard
the terms you guys refer to, most players just make
up their own descriptions for a shot they do ...

Wow, you must be a bit slow ... I've only been playing for a dozen years and I've not only heard about it, but I've actually tried it ! And I've discussed it with other players and they've heard about it too ! Most players will try to find out the proper name of a shot, so they can communicate effectively with other players, thankfully. I can just imagine the confusion in Wichita pool rooms where everyone has their own names for shots.

Dave

Now that I think about it, I haven't tried BHE with my Falcon, only with my old Brunswick/McDermott ... hmmmmmm......

 

[wayne]

Here is an example of where I would use backhand English to play position where I know no other way to do it:

START(
%AN9O0%BV2U0%CT6Q0%ET1T1%HR8T9%I_9G0%PR9Q7

)END

Straight in on the one-ball and you go around 3 rails with the backhand English to get position

START(
%AO8O6%BV2U0%CT6Q0%ET1T1%HR7U1%I_9G0%PS2R4%UD2D3%VN6N9%WJ6D8
%XP0O2%YP8Z0%ZD1I7%[S5Y2%\Q6Z9%]Q2P8%^R4Q7%bD3H5%cJ1C7%dD0H6
)END

Is there another or better way to get position?

Wayne

 

[BRKNRUN]

Here is an example of where I would use backhand English to play position where I know no other way to do it:

START(
%AN9O0%BV2U0%CT6Q0%ET1T1%HR8T9%I_9G0%PR9Q7

)END

Straight in on the one-ball and you go around 3 rails with the backhand English to get position

START(
%AO8O6%BV2U0%CT6Q0%ET1T1%HR7U1%I_9G0%PS2R4%UD2D3%VN6N9%WJ6D8
%XP0O2%YP8Z0%ZD1I7%[S5Y2%\Q6Z9%]Q2P8%^R4Q7%bD3H5%cJ1C7%dD0H6
)END

Is there another or better way to get position?

Wayne

I would probably play it that way…I would attempt to pop the ball a bit over to the right so I did not follow straight into the pocket..

Of course I would first check to see if I could (with BHE) use low left on the CB and just draw to the rail and spin it over a bit…(Its all about the exact angle though and what I felt most comfortable with at that moment)

A shot that I find is much easier to pull off with BHE is this…I can do it with parallel English, but it is much easier for me with BHE…

START(
%Em0D4%IC8Q2%PI4G5

)END

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here is an example of where I would use backhand English to play position where I know no other way to do it:
..

If you can make the shot with BHE I think you can make it simply by bringing the stick down on the line you need and stroking straight back and straight through. Of course, it's impossible to argue this sort of thing without being together on a table so the position can be repeated exactly for each player.

Unfortunately, you made the shot diagram so complicated with all those balls up that it's hard to tell what you're trying to get at. Do you intend to require the cue stick to be elevated?

 

[wayne]

If you can make the shot with BHE I think you can make it simply by bringing the stick down on the line you need and stroking straight back and straight through. Of course, it's impossible to argue this sort of thing without being together on a table so the position can be repeated exactly for each player.

Unfortunately, you made the shot diagram so complicated with all those balls up that it's hard to tell what you're trying to get at. Do you intend to require the cue stick to be elevated?

The balls up were necessary so it would not allow someone to say why not just draw back. Here it is without the other balls (no elevation needed-straight in on the 1).

START(
%AN7O5%BV8T5%PQ9R3%UT6X7%VQ6[1%WD5G8%XH0D0%YP8Z3%ZC9H9%[I0D3
%\O0N5%]D5D7%^N1O0%eB0a4
)END

Wayne

 

[Bob Jewett]

The balls up were necessary so it would not allow someone to say why not just draw back. Here it is without the other balls (no elevation needed-straight in on the 1). ...

One more clarification. By "BHE" do you mean "aim, pivot, and then stroke straight through" or do you mean "aim without side spin and swoop on the final forward stroke." Different people mean different things by BHE.

I'll assume you mean the swoop one. I think it doesn't help on this shot, and I think I can follow three cushions for position without any swooping. Of course, until we can compare the two techniques -- your shot against my shot -- it's hard to say.

 

[unknownpro]

OK, You got my attention. I want more!

Using straight side english and a good stroke you should be able to deflect your cueball 1/2 ball width to the side, and have it roll in a straight line. Aim with your tip at a spot down table that is on the edge of your ghost cueball and you can make the shot at any speed with the same exact aim point for you tip, regardless of distance.

unknownpro

 

[drivermaker]

Aim with your tip at a spot down table that is on the edge of your ghost cueball and you can make the shot at any speed with the same exact aim point for you tip, regardless of distance.

unknownpro

And what happens if you're poltyrgeist challenged? I've never been able to see Casper either, except when he was printed out in the comic books.
Also, what happens if you misjudge the size of your ghost ball from 2 1/4" down to 2"....you'll miss the shot everytime. I can only see what I can see...I can't see what's not there and what I can't see. See?

 

[predator]

How well does BE work on small pockets?

For the past few days I've watched knockout rounds from 2005 WPC in Taiwan. Tight pockets, just 4 1/4 inches wide (nearly 5 inches last year) and guess what...most of the players with excessive movement in their stroke did not get very far, whether applying BE or not. Players steady strokes who use paralell english easily dominated. I don't think we'll ever see WPC being played on bigger pockets. Makes you think doesn't it?

 

[Colin Colenso]

How well does BE work on small pockets?

For the past few days I've watched knockout rounds from 2005 WPC in Taiwan. Tight pockets, just 4 1/4 inches wide (nearly 5 inches last year) and guess what...most of the players with excessive movement in their stroke did not get very far, whether applying BE or not. Players steady strokes who use paralell english easily dominated. I don't think we'll ever see WPC being played on bigger pockets. Makes you think doesn't it?

Well I've never heard of any snooker or english pool players who use BE and they are games that require much higher potting accuracy to excel.

However, I do think a lot of snooker players are using slight BE unconsciously with sligh tuck and roll to produce a touch of outside english. I'm quite conviced that this mostly nullifies kicks (skid) from bad contacts.

I think it is quite useful for all players to have an understanding of how deflection and BE work and affect alignment. It can save a lot of guessing about what's happening. I wasted a lot of time trying to be a perfect centre ball hitter and found my game improved by playing with a touch of outside english on most pots.

I will be suprised though, if I ever see players with the kind of sideways cue movement of Bustamante or Rempe reach the highest levels of the games requiring high potting accuracy.

 

[Colin Colenso]

And what happens if you're poltyrgeist challenged? I've never been able to see Casper either, except when he was printed out in the comic books.
Also, what happens if you misjudge the size of your ghost ball from 2 1/4" down to 2"....you'll miss the shot everytime. I can only see what I can see...I can't see what's not there and what I can't see. See?

Drivermaker,
You need to read Dr. Wayne Dyer's "You'll See it when You Believe It!"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038070658X/002-7488284-0056842?v=glance

 

[drivermaker]

I wasted a lot of time trying to be a perfect centre ball hitter and found my game improved by playing with a touch of outside english on most pots.

Now all you have to do is get it down pat with a touch of inside english. Once you figure out how to do it, you'll make even MORE balls. IMO, I feel that using a tad of inside is the most accurate way to go on the majority of cuts if you can then get away with position from it. Although again, it's based on what type of stroke you use and where you hit it on the vertical plane for CB movement.

 

[drivermaker]

Drivermaker,
You need to read Dr. Wayne Dyer's "You'll See it when You Believe It!"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038070658X/002-7488284-0056842?v=glance

Yeh, but can he run multiple racks of 9-ball and kick my ass on the table?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Now all you have to do is get it down pat with a touch of inside english. Once you figure out how to do it, you'll make even MORE balls. IMO, I feel that using a tad of inside is the most accurate way to go on the majority of cuts if you can then get away with position from it. Although again, it's based on what type of stroke you use and where you hit it on the vertical plane for CB movement.

Playing with inside english is definitely a weakness of mine and I plan to try some of the aiming systems mentioned to see what works best.

Snooker players avoid inside english like the plague, though english billiard players use it a lot.

In snooker, inside english can actually increase the effect of kicks (skid) and this nearly always results in a miss and lost position (shape). In US pool kicks don't have as much effect due to the larger heavier balls and the larger pockets. I rarely miss at pool due to kicks, but in snooker, it is a major concern and often the cause of a lost game.

 

[chefjeff]

Drivermaker,
You need to read Dr. Wayne Dyer's "You'll See it when You Believe It!"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038070658X/002-7488284-0056842?v=glance

He doesn't "need" to, but it might be "better" if he did.

Wayne's work is inspiring but a little too mystical for me. I do like the way he relates thought to being the controller of form (a soul within a body). Einstein missed this integration, imho.

How about testing these english/aiming ideas for consistency ? That way, we each can play better in the long run while reducing the harmful tensions that come from defending our different ways of, in this case, applying english. This paradigm enables a player to better exploit whatever other valuable ideas the universe has to offer, pool related or not. This process, which can be integrated within each pool shot, will then help build one's happiness, the ultimate goal of any conscious being.

Thanks for coming to the sermon...see ya next Sunday.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Colin Colenso]

He doesn't "need" to, but it might be "better" if he did.

Wayne's work is inspiring but a little too mystical for me. I do like the way he relates thought to being the controller of form (a soul within a body). Einstein missed this integration, imho.

How about testing these english/aiming ideas for consistency ? That way, we each can play better in the long run while reducing the harmful tensions that come from defending our different ways of, in this case, applying english. This paradigm enables a player to better exploit whatever other valuable ideas the universe has to offer, pool related or not. This process, which can be integrated within each pool shot, will then help build one's happiness, the ultimate goal of any conscious being.

Thanks for coming to the sermon...see ya next Sunday.

Jeff Livingston

I'd come back with something insightful and humorous Jeff, but having drunk about 300 beers last night, it's all just going over my head

Anyway, we should be sharing truth, that is 'my ideas', not just anyone's ideas

 

[swami4u]

I'd come back with something insightful and humorous Jeff, but having drunk about 300 beers last night, it's all just going over my head

Anyway, we should be sharing truth, that is 'my ideas', not just anyone's ideas

I was playing pool in a hall 12 years ago. I played a guy some cheap races that played good. after he saw im not that 1000 game he was looking for he said here take a look at this. he showed me BHE But a little differant then some people here seem to think. Its very simple ,cue on the ball center and move your backhand a little bit while still shooting the center ball hit. I really thought he was a quack when he told me.LOL But after shooting it for a week i found a spot for it in my game, When i really need to spin cueball around the table on a shot without much angle. It to me seems to force the english to take off the rail while keeping the shot easy to pocket without alot of throw on the cueball. i use no wrist turn or any of that in this stroke, just center, move butt of cue a little bit, and stroke as normal. I also prefer to use this on extreme cuts when i feel inside makes the shot a bit easyer. But it dosent come up all the time, but sure is nice to have when you need to really get the ball a spinning. I say if you dont have this stroke get it asap. And to me its hella fun to practise also!