Going by the assumption that most shots are missed because a player puts unintended english on the cueball, why does backhand english seem to work so well for alot of players? My understanding of backhand english is that you line up on the shot like you are going to hit it centerball, and then you swerve your tip to wherever on the cueball you wish to apply spin. Supposedly this compensates for deflection and throw to a certain extent (from what I am told by players who use it). If this is true, then putting unintended english on the cueball can't be the cause of misses. Doing it intentionally and unintentionally are the same thing, your cuetip is swerving to the side. I myself don't use backhand english, I have a different system that works fairly well. Alot of players say that backhand english (also known as nip/tuck) is the best, but I don't understand why it works if you are lining up center ball and swerving your tip to the side on the final stroke. Who here uses it and what is your opinion on this?
Backhand English
- Thread starter LastTwo
- Start date
It's a good point Last Two!
While it's true that backhand english cancels out unintended english, I don't believe it does it completely, though perhaps someone who has worked out their cue pivot point and speed:deflection ratios can be pretty sure he's rarely missing from unintended side spin.
But I also think straight cueists who blame unintended side, or pulling or pushing their shots are mostly wrong too. I think most of their misses come from incorrect allignmet in the first case.
While it's true that backhand english cancels out unintended english, I don't believe it does it completely, though perhaps someone who has worked out their cue pivot point and speed:deflection ratios can be pretty sure he's rarely missing from unintended side spin.
But I also think straight cueists who blame unintended side, or pulling or pushing their shots are mostly wrong too. I think most of their misses come from incorrect allignmet in the first case.
drivermaker
Banned
LastTwo said:
I think you've been hanging around too many Beverly Hills people like Wayne and Tate that have money. Nip/Tuck is what they get on a monthly basis for their face, stomach, ass, and other areas. You pay table time in a pool room...their table time costs more because it's how much time they spend on their plastic surgeons table.
It's tuck/roll. I use it and it works great. But, who said you're lining up center ball at all times to do it? Does it look like Efren and Busta are EVER lining up center ball?
I don't think it is as simple as all that. Even more so than aiming point, english is a feel thing. Most people talk about two types of english. Parallel and back hand english. There are actually three ways to put english on a shot. The third is 'front hand english'.
1. Parallel english is where both the back hand and the front hand are moved the same (small distance) right or left of the center ball hit.
2. Back hand english is where you move the back hand and keep the front hand or your bridge stationary, to move the tip right or left of the center ball it. The stick pivots at the bridge.
3. Front hand english is moving the bridge right of left while keeping the back hand in the original center ball hit position. (not usually talked about because it isn't usually used on purpose, but can happen by accident.)
Now lets draw two matrixes. One for left english and one for right english. On the top well will have three columns. One for each type of english mentioned above. On the left side of the matrix we will have 8 rows. One row for each 1/8th of a tip of english. See what I'm getting at? The types of english can be combined. So to get an effective 1/2 tip of left english I can use 1/4 tip of back hand english and 1/4 tip of parallel english. This matrix shows the nearly infinite positions that can be used to put english on the cue ball. If there were only two (parallel and back hand) it would be more finite, but when you through in the third you get big numbers. Like going from 2D to 3D. This is why it has to be more of a feel thing.
Of course nobody goes down to the cue ball thinking they are going to use 1/4 tip of back hand english and 1/4 tip of parallel english. (I'll be anxious to see how many people respond without reading to this point in the post saying that nobody does that. I know nobody does that. LOL) I'm just using this to show that it is not as simple as people think it is. And I'm using it to answer your question about how unintentional english can happen. If you are using back hand english you can get unintentional parallel or front hand english, etc, etc.
I've been taught to make all my decisions standing up and "then, in one motion, come down to my shooting spot". I think it is a mistake to come down to center ball then while your bent over add the english you want. In this way again it is a feel thing. There are an infinite number of distances you can be from the object ball. The farther you are from it the more squirt you have to deal with. So when the cue ball is close to the object ball there is no need for back hand english and back hand english might even throw you off then. The farther you are away the more need to compensate for squirt so the more need to use back hand english to compensate for it. And then all the positions in-between that may use a little bit of each to get the amount of english you want and the amount of squirt compensation you need.
Pool is so easy isn't it! LOL
1. Parallel english is where both the back hand and the front hand are moved the same (small distance) right or left of the center ball hit.
2. Back hand english is where you move the back hand and keep the front hand or your bridge stationary, to move the tip right or left of the center ball it. The stick pivots at the bridge.
3. Front hand english is moving the bridge right of left while keeping the back hand in the original center ball hit position. (not usually talked about because it isn't usually used on purpose, but can happen by accident.)
Now lets draw two matrixes. One for left english and one for right english. On the top well will have three columns. One for each type of english mentioned above. On the left side of the matrix we will have 8 rows. One row for each 1/8th of a tip of english. See what I'm getting at? The types of english can be combined. So to get an effective 1/2 tip of left english I can use 1/4 tip of back hand english and 1/4 tip of parallel english. This matrix shows the nearly infinite positions that can be used to put english on the cue ball. If there were only two (parallel and back hand) it would be more finite, but when you through in the third you get big numbers. Like going from 2D to 3D. This is why it has to be more of a feel thing.
Of course nobody goes down to the cue ball thinking they are going to use 1/4 tip of back hand english and 1/4 tip of parallel english. (I'll be anxious to see how many people respond without reading to this point in the post saying that nobody does that. I know nobody does that. LOL) I'm just using this to show that it is not as simple as people think it is. And I'm using it to answer your question about how unintentional english can happen. If you are using back hand english you can get unintentional parallel or front hand english, etc, etc.
I've been taught to make all my decisions standing up and "then, in one motion, come down to my shooting spot". I think it is a mistake to come down to center ball then while your bent over add the english you want. In this way again it is a feel thing. There are an infinite number of distances you can be from the object ball. The farther you are from it the more squirt you have to deal with. So when the cue ball is close to the object ball there is no need for back hand english and back hand english might even throw you off then. The farther you are away the more need to compensate for squirt so the more need to use back hand english to compensate for it. And then all the positions in-between that may use a little bit of each to get the amount of english you want and the amount of squirt compensation you need.
Pool is so easy isn't it! LOL
LastTwo said:
I brought this up a little while back.....I termed it "accidental BHE"
My thought on this is, say your lined up with a dead straight in shot. Once you get perfectly aligned, if your bridge hand does not move, you can swerve the tip off center in any direction and still make the shot.....The whole key is that the bridge hand must not move and the cue must pivot...either on purpose or by accident.
So I would say that if your missing shots, it's probably due to mis alignment from the set up, not the stroke...unless its your bridge hand that is unstable during the stroke...That usually is the case with me...If I can't get aligned on the shot I tend to miss, or if my brige hand wobbles on akward shots...thats when I miss...
That being said. if you are accidently putting a touch of right hand english on the ball you may pocket the ball, but your shape on the next shot will be affected by the mis hit.....
Also don't forget .....How hard you hit the shot and length of shot can play a roll in the BHE or (accidental BHE) concept
Just to point out...for a majority of shots that I use BHE...I am only pivoting the cue 1/2 or mabey 1 tip off center....I have found that with BHE I get way more english with very little off set....with parallell english it took a lot more in my opinion...(perhaps the physics guys can explain why it works that way... I can't...it just does for me)
Last edited:
BRKNRUN said:
A good follow when using english will also have an almost similar effect. Here is a shot that can not be achieve which otherwise would not be attainable. A good foolow through would achieve similar, but not as good.
START(
%GH4D1%Ir8P7%PM3U4%Wd4E3%XR5[4%YI5D5%ZM3T4%[C5L9%\H9C4%]R0[4
%^C0M3
)END
O
onepocketchump
Guest
Just so you all know - last night I talked aiming with a VERY good road player who shall remain unnamed at this point. He showed me what he does, which he was taught by Mark Tadd and what Efren does.
Both of these systems are taught by Hal Houle (in some version). In both of them the spin is delivered on the final stroke, i.e. backhand english.
Using any ball-to-ball aiming systems, backhand english is mandatory and automatic.
I use it and find that I can do much more with the cueball than I ever could before using the ghostball/adjustment method.
John
Both of these systems are taught by Hal Houle (in some version). In both of them the spin is delivered on the final stroke, i.e. backhand english.
Using any ball-to-ball aiming systems, backhand english is mandatory and automatic.
I use it and find that I can do much more with the cueball than I ever could before using the ghostball/adjustment method.
John
drivermaker
Banned
onepocketchump said:
Nice try, but they're never going to believe you.
drivermaker said:Nice try, but they're never going to believe you.
Good ole buddy Drivermaker, I've did some research and I believe him. I'm now aware that there are other aiming methods. They just don't work very good for me, but that is just me.
As far as just giving the ball a spin with back hand english on the final stroke? You better have as much talent as Efren does before you count on that. It is nothing you would want to teach someone that is just learning english, that is for sure. You are much better off lining up the back hand english right off and taking your practice swings in that direction rather than swerving off on the final stroke. I'm not saying I haven't done it that way when I needed to throw the object ball a little extra, but this is not the way you would want to advise a person to play english all the time.
Drivermaker,drivermaker said:Nice try, but they're never going to believe you.
I've only tried BE a few times and I figure it can work, at least ok with some practice.
I have a couple of questions though.
1. How to you adjust for harder and softer paced shots?
2. Do you need to adjust if you hit with different amounts of side?
3. How to you adjust if you're forced to elevate the cue? eg. Higher bridge over balls.
Colin Colenso said:
You are talking about exactly what I was emphasizing above. Everything has to be adjusted for. That is why it is more a 'feel' thing than a 'I just use back hand english' or 'I just use parallel english'. For example, anytime you are in a position that your bridge is more than say 6 or 7 inches from the cue ball it makes the adjustment in the back hand so small and difficult you can almost forget about back hand english, so you need to know and be able to use both by feel.
CaptainJR said:
Even lining up to the centre of the ghost ball is largely done by feel in my opinion.
However, I recall someone saying the align to the contact point when using BE, but that would just create more adjustments. eg. On a fine cut from 12" or less away, aiming at the contact point will result in a bad miss.
That would lead to other adjustments for distance and angle of shot.
Is there any decent, comprehensively explained posts or articles on how to use BE?
Colin Colenso said:
I think you might have a miss quote there maybe. If someone did say that, they are only correct in that, sure you could align to the contact point and get what ever amount of english that would give you, but what if you wanted more or less english on that particular shot. You can't just say aim at a certain spot on the object ball and you will get what you want. There are too many variables. Thus it is be feel. I believe you know what it is, now you just need to experiment with it.
What I mean when I say "by feel" is, english with all its variables, is something that is learnt from trial and error over thousands of shots.
Lately I'm really trying to remove as much english from my game as I can and get back to something I can count on, something that isn't based on feel. 'The contact point'.
Colin Colenso said:
I think what is actually meant is take your normal aim for a center CB hit...
(AIM AND PIVOT METHOD)
Using whatever aiming method you use, aim as if you were going to hit the shot with no english at all....then with bridge hand firmly planted "pivot" your cue in any direction 1/2 tip or even 1 tip...then stroke through to your "new" contact point....the ball goes in and english has been applied.
(AIM AND TUCK/ROLL/SWOOP/SWIPE/SWEEP)
Using whatever aiming method you use, aim as if you were going to hit the shot with no english at all....then (WITH BRIDGE HAND FIRMLY PLANTED) swoop/swipe/sweep the cue tip into the desired english....
The "key" and common demoninator is the bridge hand must remain firmly planted and is used as a "pivot fulcrum" for the cue.
If you stay within 1/2 tip to 1 tip no adjustments necessary unless you hit the CB pretty hard......I will let the scientists tell you the principles behind the deflection / throw offset and such....All I care about is that it works...
I would suggest that if you are just starting to experiment with BHE...Set up a reasonably short dead straight in shot...aim and pivot and shoot...You should be able to in a very short time be able to shoot the shot and have your cue ball darn near stop dead but spinning in place like a top.....(and you pocketed the OB)....My son gets a kick out of that and wants me to show his friends when they come over...
drivermaker
Banned
CaptainJR said:
The aiming methods don't work for you because you still don't know all that are out there, nor how to do them properly. Plus, if you're still hung up on contact points (which I KNOW you are) and trying to combine it with something else...it won't work.
Well, I guess everybody on the planet better stop using backhand english immediately...pro or otherwise. Who has the talent of Efren?
I don't want to teach anybody that is just learning the game, let alone BHE.
LastTwo said:
Good question. Hitting center and then swerving would be different than accidentally hitting off-center and then following through straight to a no-english aim-point with your tip. The latter would deflect the cueball, the first would not. Some very, very good players use backhand english. I never do, and I don't believe any of the very best players do. If their stroke is always straight, they can't be using backhand english, can they?
I don't believe most shots are missed because of unintentional english. They are missed because of a bad stroke, or a bad choice of aim. Often you will dog the ball you're trying hardest to make because you hit that one where you are looking, and it's the wrong place.
unknownpro
unknownpro said:
I think that there are many pros that use BHE...I think it may be hard to tell because with BHE they are still staying real close to center CB....To the untrained eye they may not catch the last second minute adjustment
I think some of the misconception of BHE is that people think your pivoting the cue way out to the edge of the CB, when in reality your only pivoting the cue 1/2 tip wich may not even be noticable to someone standing to the side watching.
or if they are a tuck and roll type BHE shooter...you would probably never be able to tell unless you knew what you were looking for.........I think that BHE may have been up until the last few years one of those un-talked-about secrets of pool.......JMO