BAD CALLS in Pro Matches - Unintentional Miscue SCOOP SHOTS

[dr_dave]

FYI, I just posted a new video that shows two recent examples of bad calls made in pro pool matches, discusses miscue scoop shot fouls, and makes a recommendation for a rule change:

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!

 

[MitchAlsup]

I have come around to the position where any scoop shot should be a foul (intentional or not).

With a little persuasion, I could be convinced that any time the CB leaves the table where it was not intentionally jumped is a foul.
{this includes the jump over a dime when the CB is hit hard from a top-spin break shot.}

 

[dr_dave]

I have come around to the position where any scoop shot should be a foul (intentional or not).

Agreed. Here is the language I recommend in the video:

"Any jump shot involving a scoop or a miscue is a foul."​

With a little persuasion, I could be convinced that any time the CB leaves the table where it was not intentionally jumped is a foul.
{this includes the jump over a dime when the CB is hit hard from a top-spin break shot.}

That is just silly.

The CB leaves the table surface on almost every shot!

Maybe every shot in snooker or the APA should be called a foul?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Nice video. All those shots are clearly not fouls by any rule book I've ever read. The only things I can think of to explain:

1) Are miscues a foul in snooker? (I honestly don't know). Both refs are snooker refs and that could explain it.
2) How do you know they are playing WPA rules? MR has made up their own rules from the start. This could be their own rule set, where all miscues are declared fouls.

 

[iusedtoberich]

BTW, your post shows this. I've never seen anything like this before on a youtube link. No idea why...

 

[MattPoland]

I’m kind of leaning toward the idea that all miscues should be fouls. When the game is played correctly miscues aren’t supposed to happen. It’s an error for them to occur. You don’t deserve a miscue that makes a ball or leaves a safety. You deserve an opponent with ball in hand. My only hesitation on that is my Revo sometimes sounds like a miscue on shots that other execute with ball action as pure as a good hit even though I heard a little bit of a tink. I don’t want to be debating sounds with an opponent, just punishing obvious bad play.

 

[dr_dave]

Nice video.

Thanks.

All those shots are clearly not fouls by any rule book I've ever read. The only things I can think of to explain:

1) Are miscues a foul in snooker? (I honestly don't know). Both refs are snooker refs and that could explain it.

No. Snooker actually allows intentional miscues!

2) How do you know they are playing WPA rules? MR has made up their own rules from the start. This could be their own rule set, where all miscues are declared fouls.

Their online rules page indicates:

“World Nineball Tour events are conducted and played according to the Standard Rules and Regulations,”

 

[dr_dave]

BTW, your post shows this. I've never seen anything like this before on a youtube link. No idea why...

View attachment 705619

I have never seen this on any video on any device.

 

[dr_dave]

I’m kind of leaning toward the idea that all miscues should be fouls. When the game is played correctly miscues aren’t supposed to happen. It’s an error for them to occur. You don’t deserve a miscue that makes a ball or leaves a safety. You deserve an opponent with ball in hand. My only hesitation on that is my Revo sometimes sounds like a miscue on shots that other execute with ball action as pure as a good hit even though I heard a little bit of a tink. I don’t want to be debating sounds with an opponent, just punishing obvious bad play.

I also agree that all obvious miscues should be fouls. Pretty much all miscues involve secondary contact anyway, per the videos and info here:

miscue foul resource page​

 

[Electric Boogaloo]

I like the intentional illegal scoop halfway through the video. Is there a blooper reel where the ball leaves the table and lands in the litter box?

 

[bbb]

I’m kind of leaning toward the idea that all miscues should be fouls. When the game is played correctly miscues aren’t supposed to happen. It’s an error for them to occur. You don’t deserve a miscue that makes a ball or leaves a safety. You deserve an opponent with ball in hand. My only hesitation on that is my Revo sometimes sounds like a miscue on shots that other execute with ball action as pure as a good hit even though I heard a little bit of a tink. I don’t want to be debating sounds with an opponent, just punishing obvious bad play.

i think you could tell by the cue ball reaction if a miscue occurred.
jmho
icbw

 

[David in FL]

I have come around to the position where any scoop shot should be a foul (intentional or not).

With a little persuasion, I could be convinced that any time the CB leaves the table where it was not intentionally jumped is a foul.
{this includes the jump over a dime when the CB is hit hard from a top-spin break shot.}

Absolutely impossible to judge/enforce.

Just about any jacked up shot is going to result in the cue ball "leaving the table"...

 

[muskyed]

From my way of looking at those two examples, there was nothing to be gained by intentionally scooping the cue ball, and would point twords it just being an unintentional miscues. No foul.

 

[briclops]

I mentioned in a previous thread when the Sanjin foul occurred that why would these 2 examples below in the 2005 World Championshi final not be considered fouls as the cue ball elevated off the table at about the same height as the 2 examples by Dr. Dave. The only thing different is that they didn’t go over the object ball but same idea applies that they weren’t unintentional miscues.

✂️ 2005 WPC final

60 seconds · Clipped by theanchor20 · Original video "Jiaqing Wu vs Po-Cheng Kuo | 2005 World Pool Championship Final" by Matchroom Pool

youtube.com

✂️ 2005 WPC final

60 seconds · Clipped by theanchor20 · Original video "Jiaqing Wu vs Po-Cheng Kuo | 2005 World Pool Championship Final" by Matchroom Pool

youtube.com

 

[MattPoland]

i think you could tell by the cue ball reaction if a miscue occurred.
jmho
icbw

I'm aligned with you on that personally.

 

[iusedtoberich]

...snip...

Their online rules page indicates:

“World Nineball Tour events are conducted and played according to the Standard Rules and Regulations,”

Do you really believe that this means WPA? Come on, have you been living under a rock? Emily has changed the whole game format practically. Pocket sizes. Ball colors. Cloth color. Rack position. Break box. Break "forceful". None of that is in WPA. Plus all the drama between MR and WPA over tour points ownership. With these two refs being as experienced as they are, I'm voting Emily changed this rule, or someone told her to make it so, as she's not a player.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I mentioned in a previous thread when the Sanjin foul occurred that why would these 2 examples below in the 2005 World Championshi final not be considered fouls as the cue ball elevated off the table at about the same height as the 2 examples by Dr. Dave. The only thing different is that they didn’t go over the object ball but same idea applies that they weren’t unintentional miscues.

✂️ 2005 WPC final

60 seconds · Clipped by theanchor20 · Original video "Jiaqing Wu vs Po-Cheng Kuo | 2005 World Pool Championship Final" by Matchroom Pool

youtube.com

✂️ 2005 WPC final

60 seconds · Clipped by theanchor20 · Original video "Jiaqing Wu vs Po-Cheng Kuo | 2005 World Pool Championship Final" by Matchroom Pool

youtube.com

Because these were WPA rules. MR events are under Emily rules, whatever that may be, who knows.

 

[dr_dave]

I mentioned in a previous thread when the Sanjin foul occurred that why would these 2 examples below in the 2005 World Championshi final not be considered fouls as the cue ball elevated off the table at about the same height as the 2 examples by Dr. Dave. The only thing different is that they didn’t go over the object ball but same idea applies that they weren’t unintentional miscues.

✂️ 2005 WPC final

60 seconds · Clipped by theanchor20 · Original video "Jiaqing Wu vs Po-Cheng Kuo | 2005 World Pool Championship Final" by Matchroom Pool

youtube.com

✂️ 2005 WPC final

60 seconds · Clipped by theanchor20 · Original video "Jiaqing Wu vs Po-Cheng Kuo | 2005 World Pool Championship Final" by Matchroom Pool

youtube.com

Excellent point, and good examples.

 

[dr_dave]

i think you could tell by the cue ball reaction if a miscue occurred.

I'm aligned with you on that personally.

Me too. A miscue could be ruled a foul (in a future version of the rules) only if CB motion clearly indicates a miscue.

 

[dr_dave]

Their online rules page indicates:

“World Nineball Tour events are conducted and played according to the Standard Rules and Regulations,”

Do you really believe that this means WPA?

Yes.

Come on, have you been living under a rock? Emily has changed the whole game format practically. Pocket sizes. Ball colors. Cloth color. Rack position. Break box. Break "forceful". None of that is in WPA. Plus all the drama between MR and WPA over tour points ownership. With these two refs being as experienced as they are, I'm voting Emily changed this rule, or someone told her to make it so, as she's not a player.

At the link, they have listed all the exceptions to the WPA rules. All other standard WPA rules are still in place (e.g., how to deal with scoops and miscues).