BAD CALLS in Pro Matches - Unintentional Miscue SCOOP SHOTS

[dr_dave]

Question: Are all/most miscues fouls? I’ve heard this before, and I think Dr Dave has said this.

I think it is possible for a miscue to not involve sliding contact and secondary hits, but every single type of miscue I have seen in super slow motion clearly shows sliding contact and secondary hits from the tip, ferrule, and/or shaft. So every miscue I have seen in super slow motion has technically been a foul. Many examples can be found in the videos here:

miscue foul resource page​

But in my experience, the vast majority of miscues leave a hard spot of chalk on the cue ball and a blank spot on the cue tip. You need to scrape the chalk off the cue ball with your fingernail because it doesn’t just rub off like normal, and you need to re-chalk your tip in one very visible spot. That would not be a foul because the bad contact clearly occurred on the tip - that’s why the chalk has been heavily imprinted on the cue ball. It just happened on the outside of the tip. Of course secondary contact on the shaft or ferrule does happen, but in my experience the “edge of tip” miscue occurs much more often. You can hear the miscue, and it throws off the shot, but there’s no shaft or ferrule contact.

The chalk mark on the CB comes from the sliding contact. The secondary contact with the tip, ferrule, and/or shaft occur after that.

 

[FranCrimi]

Does anybody have any comments, thoughts, or opinions about this?

Yes. The cb riding up on to the ferrule or the ferrule touching the top of the cb, is not necessarily a double hit. It's normally part of one continuous stroke motion. A double hit occurs when there is not a continuous motion and the tip hits the cb twice.

 

[FranCrimi]

The WPA is a good denominator for pool rules.

Yes, particularly for international competitions, because WPA rules go through a process where each continental federation gets to weigh in on them and offer changes or additions --- and all of the continents get to vote on all changes. So they really are a composite (as well as some compromises) of all of the continents.

 

[maha]

until you have instant reply like football you cant start calling fouls for things not obvious to the ref or opponent and shooter.

and why bother is this deciding tournament wins and payouts often enough to worry about.

or change it for those that are nitty picky about things and have to have everything perfect that cant be quantified even.

because then soon players will start calling it on opponents whether or not it was, just to upset things and then it is a legitimate strategy
to fluster your opponent.

the good reason fouls should be obvious and not subtle.

 

[Mensabum]

FYI, I just posted a new video that shows two recent examples of bad calls made in pro pool matches, discusses miscue scoop shot fouls, and makes a recommendation for a rule change:

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!

FYI, I just posted a new video that shows two recent examples of bad calls made in pro pool matches, discusses miscue scoop shot fouls, and makes a recommendation for a rule change:

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!

Idk about that first shot in your vid Doc. Just by looking at the angle of his q it seems to me like any good player would know that ball is going airborne. Maybe it's just me, but that sure looks like a foul. His meek reaction kind of says it all to a seasoned Old road dawg like me.
Ok boys, let 'er rip. Lol.

 

[Mensabum]

I think the main problem with changing the rule to "all miscues are fouls" is that it is a large change from what we are doing now. If there is no referee it requires additional good sportsmanship from the players. And for US bar leagues, I doubt that they would implement a rule that will primarily penalize weaker players for such an unintentional error.

Good point.

 

[Mensabum]

I’m all for it. Though it will (like many other ‘pro’ rules) likely be ignored by the barroom bangers, it will incite better play in the end.
I have recently noticed that miscues can usually be avoided while still accomplishing your goal, if you try hard enough. In ‘all fouls’ pro games, the careless inadvertent touching of object balls (that seems all too common otherwise) is typically avoided. The optimistic gambler usually expects his excessive english miscue will still get to a rail (or the ‘hanger‘ OB will be a sure thing), so he is thus not careful. A foul penalty would change that.

If your stroke is straight, a miscue on a long draw or extreme high English shot often results in the object ball falling in the intended hole, but you blew shape all to hell bcuz of the miscue. Should I be able to continue shooting since the OB hit the hole??
In the past, the answer has been YES. Just got lucky, dude. Lol.
W a rule change, that stuff is history.

 

[Mensabum]

until you have instant reply like football you cant start calling fouls for things not obvious to the ref or opponent and shooter.

and why bother is this deciding tournament wins and payouts often enough to worry about.

or change it for those that are nitty picky about things and have to have everything perfect that cant be quantified even.

because then soon players will start calling it on opponents whether or not it was, just to upset things and then it is a legitimate strategy
to fluster your opponent.

the good reason fouls should be obvious and not subtle.

The more money involved, the more whiners come out of the woodwork. I've played guys who normally are chill until serious coin is involved, then their true personality shines thru. Nitpick.
I'm all outta cheese and crackers dude.

 

[Mensabum]

Yes. The cb riding up on to the ferrule or the ferrule touching the top of the cb, is not necessarily a double hit. It's normally part of one continuous stroke motion. A double hit occurs when there is not a continuous motion and the tip hits the cb twice.

How many of you have shot a high English shot off the rails, or close to the rail and your shaft slides over the top of the cue ball trapping it B4 it gets rolling??
Beginner error, but we've all done it.

 

[FranCrimi]

Idk about that first shot in your vid Doc. Just by looking at the angle of his q it seems to me like any good player would know that ball is going airborne. Maybe it's just me, but that sure looks like a foul. His meek reaction kind of says it all to a seasoned Old road dawg like me.
Ok boys, let 'er rip. Lol.

Why would a pro want to jump over the ball he has to hit?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What do other people think about making all miscues and scoop shots fouls based on the info above and to simplify the rules and eliminate the need to judge player intent?

Most miscues work against the shooter. How about only calling fouls on miscues that result in an advantage for the shooter? Or simply giving up the turn for any miscue?

pj
chgo

 

[maha]

you cant even prove a miscue let alone punish for it.

all you can do is say the ferrel hit the ball. so what.

only when jumping the ball by hitting low can you really definitively say it was a foul. as that is a stated rule.

if you use too much side english you can miscue and now call that a foul when the cue ball goes sideways?

i dont care what they do in tournaments, but cash games seem to follow tournament rules and that will only create arguments.

 

[dr_dave]

Most miscues work against the shooter.

… except when you still pocket the desired ball with the miscue, like with a draw miscue or with a pocket hanger.
… or with an intentional miscue (which is already handled by the unsportsmanlike foul rule).

How about only calling fouls on miscues that result in an advantage for the shooter?

… by giving the opponent the option to shoot or return control back to the miscue rafter the miscue? One issue might be judging if a shot is an “obvious miscue” or not.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

I’m kind of leaning toward the idea that all miscues should be fouls. When the game is played correctly miscues aren’t supposed to happen. It’s an error for them to occur. You don’t deserve a miscue that makes a ball or leaves a safety. You deserve an opponent with ball in hand. My only hesitation on that is my Revo sometimes sounds like a miscue on shots that other execute with ball action as pure as a good hit even though I heard a little bit of a tink. I don’t want to be debating sounds with an opponent, just punishing obvious bad play.

i dont like that thinking
if we cant genuinely commit errors on accident then just have robots play pool

 

[FranCrimi]

Most miscues work against the shooter. How about only calling fouls on miscues that result in an advantage for the shooter? Or simply giving up the turn for any miscue?

pj
chgo

That might be inconsistent with the rules in non-call shot games where lucky shots are allowed as long as the required ball is struck first.

 

[MattPoland]

i dont like that thinking
if we cant genuinely commit errors on accident then just have robots play pool

You also in favor of getting rid of “all ball fouls” since that’s just committing an error on accident?

In my mind it’s more about punishing sloppy play.

 

[maha]

i am against all ball fouls except maybe in the biggest tournaments.

 

[Flakeandrun]

i am against all ball fouls except maybe in the biggest tournaments.

all ball fouls, all the time
Tuck your shirt in. Work out a little

 

[Texas Carom Club]

You also in favor of getting rid of “all ball fouls” since that’s just committing an error on accident?

In my mind it’s more about punishing sloppy play.

It’s an accident, how is that sloppy

How can you punish an accident

 

[maha]

so if you are playing a friend in the pool room you would call fouls on him.

or if playing for sociable say ten bucks you would call it. if so you would find yourself practicing alone most often.

i generally play 100 minimum and never has it ever even been discussed. but put that rule in or other picky ones and you can be sure to have issues.