Bad Problem with John Showman, (Cue Stolen)
- Thread starter Quality Cues
- Start date
The initial thread regarding Showman got pulled. Here is the follow-up thread asking where it went with more discussion. Thomas Wayne has a partial copy of the thread if you want it.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=341596
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=341596
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Yeah I get that but a roundtrip tic is still way cheaper than a $7k cue. As I said I would in no way have the patience to deal with it this long. Somestimes escalation is what is needed to remedy a situation, obviously the nice guy route while admirable does not work. One thing that would be in my mind is with the delays and stories quite possibly this guy is having bad money problems. With that being said who knows if he just says screw it and sells your cue to someone else??? So then you go the court route, he gets probation - you get a worthless judgement that you may or may not ever see a cent from. Anyhow, good luck I hope from here on out it works out OK for you.
Showman built me a cue a while back. My experience with him was somewhat different.
I met John at Ted Harris's shop. I honestly did not know who Showman was and at the time I had come up to Ted's shop with three old Titlist one piece cues. I was going to take one to Dennis and I wanted Ted to look at the cues and see what he thought about the each of the three cues suitability for conversion. John was sitting in Teds shop and Ted says to me...hey meet John Showman...hes an awesome cuemaker. Ted says to me ....hey you should get John to convert one of these for you. He does awesome titlist conversions. So I gave one cue to John. One to Dennis and the other I took home.
Fast forward about 18 mos or somewhere around there later. I get a call and its John. He says hey im going to start building your cue. Tell me what you would like done. I had even forgotten about this. I never called John one time while he had my cue. Now at the time John called me I still was not entirely well versed about his cues. Sounds ridiculous but its true. I was out of cue collecting largely and had not be following the wanted for sale section of AZ closely. Anyways when he called me and asked me what I wanted done, I said well can we keep the cue right around 1800-2000? He did pause a bit but he said sure, ok I can do that. Again, I had no idea what he charged, how long his wait was and it was only later that I learned that asking him to do a cue for the price I did was pretty much not his pricing.
So again fast forward many months later and he calls me when it was ready and told me he was shipping it and told me the price I still owed. Included in the bill was a case, one of those 1x2 Ron Thomas cases that has Showman cues engraved in the top. I told him could he please just ship the cue without a case and he said ok sure. The cue arrives and it has the case so I write him back and say John you sent me the case? He said yeah it didnt feel right shipping the cue without the case. Dont worry about it.
The cue was stunning. Here it is
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=183606
Again fast forward a year or so and my sons summer camp bill is in front of me. $3k for both sons. I decided to sell the cue. I told showman I had sold the cue and I had made money on it and I asked him to me at least take him out to a dinner. Just tell me where you like to eat in Tampa and Ill set it up. He wouldn't take that either.
To the original poster, I am not doubting your story. I am simply providing an alternative opinion of John that came from my own direct experience with him.
I met John at Ted Harris's shop. I honestly did not know who Showman was and at the time I had come up to Ted's shop with three old Titlist one piece cues. I was going to take one to Dennis and I wanted Ted to look at the cues and see what he thought about the each of the three cues suitability for conversion. John was sitting in Teds shop and Ted says to me...hey meet John Showman...hes an awesome cuemaker. Ted says to me ....hey you should get John to convert one of these for you. He does awesome titlist conversions. So I gave one cue to John. One to Dennis and the other I took home.
Fast forward about 18 mos or somewhere around there later. I get a call and its John. He says hey im going to start building your cue. Tell me what you would like done. I had even forgotten about this. I never called John one time while he had my cue. Now at the time John called me I still was not entirely well versed about his cues. Sounds ridiculous but its true. I was out of cue collecting largely and had not be following the wanted for sale section of AZ closely. Anyways when he called me and asked me what I wanted done, I said well can we keep the cue right around 1800-2000? He did pause a bit but he said sure, ok I can do that. Again, I had no idea what he charged, how long his wait was and it was only later that I learned that asking him to do a cue for the price I did was pretty much not his pricing.
So again fast forward many months later and he calls me when it was ready and told me he was shipping it and told me the price I still owed. Included in the bill was a case, one of those 1x2 Ron Thomas cases that has Showman cues engraved in the top. I told him could he please just ship the cue without a case and he said ok sure. The cue arrives and it has the case so I write him back and say John you sent me the case? He said yeah it didnt feel right shipping the cue without the case. Dont worry about it.
The cue was stunning. Here it is
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=183606
Again fast forward a year or so and my sons summer camp bill is in front of me. $3k for both sons. I decided to sell the cue. I told showman I had sold the cue and I had made money on it and I asked him to me at least take him out to a dinner. Just tell me where you like to eat in Tampa and Ill set it up. He wouldn't take that either.
To the original poster, I am not doubting your story. I am simply providing an alternative opinion of John that came from my own direct experience with him.
Everyone has good sides and bad sides. Both of your stories are 100% true. John should take care of Mike. And lest this sound like I am preaching, I have several customers who are waiting far too long for what was promised as well. I have also done charitable things for others without expecting anything in return.
P.S.
3k summer camp???? If I had boys they would be going to "baling hay" summer camp and bringing money into the family
NYC cue dude
Banned
You're not doubting his story? You should consider yourself extremely lucky. Your transaction with JS is the exception to the rule. Quite the aberration. The OP's is much more typical. JS is NEVER on time. He is ALWAYS lying. The fact he hasn't returned a $7000 cue is criminal. Charges should be filed. Until guys like this understand and experience real consequences for their actions, this will continue to happen.
I met John only once and it was obvious from the first moment he is a kind of guy who wouldn't do what he says he would.
During our talk he came up with two different prices for the job and two different times for the repair job.And all that was done in 3 minutes chat in which actually he was the only one who was talking.I immediately knew that he forgot what he said just a minute ago.
Then I decided not go with him.
Anyway,this is my experience with John.
Fortunately,there are many others great cuemakers,even better than John is who are very trustworthy,nice,helpful and not to mention,much cheaper than he is.
During our talk he came up with two different prices for the job and two different times for the repair job.And all that was done in 3 minutes chat in which actually he was the only one who was talking.I immediately knew that he forgot what he said just a minute ago.
Then I decided not go with him.
Anyway,this is my experience with John.
Fortunately,there are many others great cuemakers,even better than John is who are very trustworthy,nice,helpful and not to mention,much cheaper than he is.
I think people in the pool business, should not be rated on how good their product is. They should be rated on how likely they are to screw you over.
In this day and age, any cue one buy's is going to play jam up. Forget about playability... go with screwoverability.
In this day and age, any cue one buy's is going to play jam up. Forget about playability... go with screwoverability.
Cuemakers
My experience with cue makers, John is not the only one, there is another cue maker just like John, about ninety percent of the people on this site adore him, can't do any wrong, think he is Gods gift to cue making. Never responds to my request, when he does it's just a lie. I stated my case in a previous thread, I received a ton of backlash, everyone knows the cue maker I'm talking about, just research my previous thread. Mike I understand your frustration you are a attorney, make him held accountable.
My experience with cue makers, John is not the only one, there is another cue maker just like John, about ninety percent of the people on this site adore him, can't do any wrong, think he is Gods gift to cue making. Never responds to my request, when he does it's just a lie. I stated my case in a previous thread, I received a ton of backlash, everyone knows the cue maker I'm talking about, just research my previous thread. Mike I understand your frustration you are a attorney, make him held accountable.
This is a great idea.
The only problem in this instance is the OP is a lawyer.
Call it a push.
I'm not sure what is meant by "John converted the cue".
That is a beautiful cue, I hope you get it back soon.
I obviously paraphrased above.
Some bad stuff happened here, let's tell everyone how great he was to you to keep your investment value up.
The first two elements of a conversion are that I have title to the Showman and Showman's conduct after I demanded return of the cue interferred with my right to possession of the cue. That has now happened. I have suffered a loss in that I'm out almost $7k and also lost the ability to sell it for cash to sell it to a previous owner of the cue. Enough said. Showman has in fact converted my cue.
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Duplicate post. Sorry.
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At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, are you certain that he's still in possession of your cue or is there a chance that perhaps it was reconditioned and sold to an unsuspecting collector, hence the reason for all the delays ......
I would have filed suit and criminal charges for felony theft long before this ... you're far more patient than most.
I would have filed suit and criminal charges for felony theft long before this ... you're far more patient than most.
One of the reasons I posted photos of the cue is to put the world on notice that the 2 maple window Showman is my cue. I do not know for a fact that Showman still has the cue. The last time I saw it was the day before Thanksgiving 2014. I was patient with Showman because I wanted him to do a great job on the project and I believed in him. I got suckered, but that does not excuse his conduct.
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Interesting that you posted this thread Mike as John's name came up at Little Kenny's show this weekend. I was engaged in conversation with a coupe of guys concerning cues demanding big bucks on the secondary market. Someone brought up Showman cues and how the price of those have steadily increased. To which I inquired..."Has anyone seen any of his cues as of late or anything new coming out of his shop"? The response I got was that he wasn't building anything and that he was a pretty lazy dude. That was it and then on to the next topic.
You and I had a conversation earlier this year concerning the very issue you posted and how you were giving John some time to come through but clearly frustrated judging by the tone of your voice. Sounds to me you've come to that fork in the road and that litigation is your only route.
I know another gentleman kinda going through the same thing you are (not with Showman Cues) but demonstrates the patience of a saint...lol.
Good Luck with your outcome...:thumbup:
You and I had a conversation earlier this year concerning the very issue you posted and how you were giving John some time to come through but clearly frustrated judging by the tone of your voice. Sounds to me you've come to that fork in the road and that litigation is your only route.
I know another gentleman kinda going through the same thing you are (not with Showman Cues) but demonstrates the patience of a saint...lol.
Good Luck with your outcome...:thumbup:
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I am sure he isn't the first or the first to speak up...
Good for you, Mike. It's nice to see someone of your caliber stepping forward on something like this. This type of thing is a real stain in this industry/hobby. It's beyond high time the cat gets out of the bag and eyes are opened. Danny Tibbitts held a substantial deposit of mine hostage for nearly a decade, ultimately refusing to build the cue I ordered. Yet another hack who is not worthy of your trust and will lie to you. I should have listened to John Wright's advice about him many years ago.
Here is a FACT....this type of thing ADVERSELY AFFECTS ALL CUEMAKERS, even the honest and timely ones.
Another unflattering story about John came out a few years ago here, about how he had jerked around 'Ken_4fun', sitting on his deposit for a long time and producing squat. Ken posted a thread about his experience in 2013 and soon after, the mods here deleted it. But what happened then is what always seems to happen, the usual suspects tightened their circle of wagons to protect him as they often do with these 'anointed ones'. Then the customer is made out to be the bad guy. You see, the inner-core dare not speak out about such a cherished maker...because after all, they have their stuff on order they are getting from them.
I hope you get some satisfaction out of this, Mike. My guess is not, though. But, it also wouldn't surprise me if something gets worked out very quickly (maybe one of his guys will go get your cue or pay up for him) and then this thread will magically disappear.
Funny thing, I think back to that hilarious episode on the Judge Judy show where someone took a somewhat famous cuemaker in CA 'to court' for something similar. That had to have been twenty something years ago.
My, how times haven't changed a bit. :frown:
Here is a FACT....this type of thing ADVERSELY AFFECTS ALL CUEMAKERS, even the honest and timely ones.
Another unflattering story about John came out a few years ago here, about how he had jerked around 'Ken_4fun', sitting on his deposit for a long time and producing squat. Ken posted a thread about his experience in 2013 and soon after, the mods here deleted it. But what happened then is what always seems to happen, the usual suspects tightened their circle of wagons to protect him as they often do with these 'anointed ones'. Then the customer is made out to be the bad guy. You see, the inner-core dare not speak out about such a cherished maker...because after all, they have their stuff on order they are getting from them.
I hope you get some satisfaction out of this, Mike. My guess is not, though. But, it also wouldn't surprise me if something gets worked out very quickly (maybe one of his guys will go get your cue or pay up for him) and then this thread will magically disappear.
Funny thing, I think back to that hilarious episode on the Judge Judy show where someone took a somewhat famous cuemaker in CA 'to court' for something similar. That had to have been twenty something years ago.
My, how times haven't changed a bit. :frown: