balance point on cue

[bruin70]

You guys make me laugh and laugh. You buy the books but eat the pages.

Hold cue at balance pt. not at extreme butt
Let the weight of the cue do the work and forget the follow through
18-22 oz. hold the cue lightly in griphand between thunb and first two fingers

if you hold the cue at it's balance point you're probably holding it 2" to 3" IN FRONT of the wrap, and no one does that....

you hold the cue BEHIND it's balance point.
you would not enjoy the feel of the balance being at your grip.

 

[LWW]

Should I hit the ball with the end that has the little leather thingie or the end that has the big rubber thingie?

LWW

 

[Drew]

us?

am i the only one who thinks this. here's my question,,,what is perpendicular? perpendicular to the stick or table....and even 1/2" ahead of perpendicular is still that. now,,,i define "perpendicular" as the forearm being STRAIGHT up and down to the table, and if you want , EXACTLY perpendicular to the cue. i don't know,,,,maybe you guys are thinking " 1" + or -". i think most players contact past the perpendicular. here's one guy who does. he's past of perpendicular to the table and thus way more than ahead or perpendicular to the cue since the cue angles down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzRX2mf2nw

btw,,i corrected a possible confusion of my terms. i think i've been saying "ahead' of perpendicular. what i meant was "past", ie after the forearm has gone past the perpendicular in the stroke.

The way I've always understood it...
A correct hit is one where contact with the cue ball occurs at bottom dead center. However, I've tried that and it's very uncomfortable. I've also watched many good players and not one of them have ever stroked a ball correctly. For the better players, contact with the cue ball occurs anywhere from 3"-8" after bottom dead center. This leads me to believe that the "correct" stroke is not really the correct way at all.

I've noticed these same types of things in other aspects of the mechanics as well. Dropping elbows, moving shoulders, strange wrist movements. I've even seen strong players stand up mid-stroke. So do what feels comfortable to you, not what everyone says you should do.

 

[DeadPoked]

The way I've always understood it...
A correct hit is one where contact with the cue ball occurs at bottom dead center. However, I've tried that and it's very uncomfortable. I've also watched many good players and not one of them have ever stroked a ball correctly. For the better players, contact with the cue ball occurs anywhere from 3"-8" after bottom dead center. This leads me to believe that the "correct" stroke is not really the correct way at all.

I've noticed these same types of things in other aspects of the mechanics as well. Dropping elbows, moving shoulders, strange wrist movements. I've even seen strong players stand up mid-stroke. So do what feels comfortable to you, not what everyone says you should do.

You seem to have noticed many things, except for the fact that the break speed you think you break at, is BS.

 

[bruin70]

The way I've always understood it...
A correct hit is one where contact with the cue ball occurs at bottom dead center. However, I've tried that and it's very uncomfortable. I've also watched many good players and not one of them have ever stroked a ball correctly. For the better players, contact with the cue ball occurs anywhere from 3"-8" after bottom dead center. This leads me to believe that the "correct" stroke is not really the correct way at all.

I've noticed these same types of things in other aspects of the mechanics as well. Dropping elbows, moving shoulders, strange wrist movements. I've even seen strong players stand up mid-stroke. So do what feels comfortable to you, not what everyone says you should do.

exactly, drew!

it's almost as if these "how-to's" were drawn up without thought, as if "perpendicular" must be correct because it seems to make sense. if a one were to REALLY hit the cb when perpendicular, it would feel as if you're hitting the cb too soon and the arc of your swing hasn't reached it's correct speed.

 

[Drew]

You seem to have noticed many things, except for the fact that the break speed you think you break at, is BS.

I'm not here to argue. If you want to fly out here with a radar and clock me, I'll be happy to place a small bet.

 

[DeadPoked]

I'm not here to argue. If you want to fly out here with a radar and clock me, I'll be happy to place a small bet.

Drew nobody to the best of my knowledge have broke in the 40 mph range. You said that is 80% of your break speed. So you are saying you break at 50mph! It's impossible! I'd bet everything I own that you can't break over 40mph. For you to even think you break this hard is laughable.

 

[Drew]

Drew nobody to the best of my knowledge have broke in the 40 mph range. You said that is 80% of your break speed. So you are saying you break at 50mph! It's impossible! I'd bet everything I own that you can't break over 40mph. For you to even think you break this hard is laughable.

So you're betting everything you own I can't hit 40.1mph is that correct?

 

[Mark Avlon]

Bruin70,

Here is a great article from Bob Jewett that clearly describes the pendulum stroke and perpendicular. It's from the February 2004 issue of Billiard Digest.

 

[TATE]

Where should it be? Is it different for playing cue vs break cue?

Over the years, cues have become lighter, longer, and thinner in the handle. Shafts have become fatter. As the butt of the cue thinned and the shaft fattened, the balance point moved forward. I would say 19 to 20 inches from the butt is the typical balance point of a modern cue.

The older cues were usually balanced 17" - 18" or even less from the butt, even with 12mm shafts. That's because they were typically an ounce or two heavier and that weight was primarily in the butt.

It seems to me the further forward that weight is, the more we feel it when we stroke. But since most of the cue's weight is supported directly in the hand, I don't think the point of balance matters as much as the actual weight of the cue. What we feel is resistance caused by the momentum of the cue forward and backward as we stroke. I personally think a forward weighed cue feels heavier stroking than a butt heavy cue even if they weigh the same.

In terms of performance, I think it's all about what feels good to you - I can't imagine a performance difference in moving the balance point a few inches.

Chris

 

[bruin70]

Bruin70,

Here is a great article from Bob Jewett that clearly describes the pendulum stroke and perpendicular. It's from the February 2004 issue of Billiard Digest.

mark. i didn't read the article,,,just looked at the top diagram because that's all that's needed. with all due respect to bob, there are tons of players who don't have their arm parallel to the table either. this is a simplified, generic diagram. "how-to's", because of the very fact that they speak to a broad audience(usually of beginners and the like),,, have to present their ideas in a very broad, simplified, and general way.

in any case, most players will strike the cb at least something like this.....
i'm apt to assume bob would consider this as "perpendicular" because in a broad context, it is. however, i'm assuming a perpendicular as bob diagrammed it in his article, which, if you tried to hit a cb at that point, would be uncomfortable.

 

[Mark Avlon]

Everyone's built differently. The height of their shoulders will vary because of their unique build. Their unique stance also affects the height of their shoulder. The key thing is not that their upper arm is parallel to the table, but that there isn't any vertical (or horizontal) movement of their elbow.

In your diagram, the forearm is slightly ahead of perpendicular. The grip hand is beginning to swing upward in the pendulum arc, and the tip is beginning to dive. If the forearm is slightly behind perpendicular, the grip hand would be moving slightly downward toward the bottom of the arc, and the tip would be moving slightly upward.

Because the forearm does not stretch, at the bottom of the arc there is no upward or downward movement of the grip hand. The cue is then traveling perpendicular to the forearm. The tip has no vertical movement. This is the time during the stroke to contact the cue ball because it ensures consistency and accuracy. The 'sweet spot'.

If you have played with your grip hand in a consistent position for any length of time and then make a change, it will feel uncomfortable because you're not used to it. If you constantly use the new position, it will begin to feel normal and comfortable. Remember when you first made a closed bridge? It didn't feel good, did it? Now, it feels normal and you don't think about it.

 

[bruin70]

Everyone's built differently. The height of their shoulders will vary because of their unique build. Their unique stance also affects the height of their shoulder. The key thing is not that their upper arm is parallel to the table, but that there isn't any vertical (or horizontal) movement of their elbow.

In your diagram, the forearm is slightly ahead of perpendicular. The grip hand is beginning to swing upward in the pendulum arc, and the tip is beginning to dive. If the forearm is slightly behind perpendicular, the grip hand would be moving slightly downward toward the bottom of the arc, and the tip would be moving slightly upward.

Because the forearm does not stretch, at the bottom of the arc there is no upward or downward movement of the grip hand. The cue is then traveling perpendicular to the forearm. The tip has no vertical movement. This is the time during the stroke to contact the cue ball because it ensures consistency and accuracy. The 'sweet spot'.

If you have played with your grip hand in a consistent position for any length of time and then make a change, it will feel uncomfortable because you're not used to it. If you constantly use the new position, it will begin to feel normal and comfortable. Remember when you first made a closed bridge? It didn't feel good, did it? Now, it feels normal and you don't think about it.

mark, i understand where the tip goes past the perp. i posit that at the point where MY contact is(and where i notice in many many many players), the downward slant of the tip has little significance,,,,and that more relevant is whether or not the player drops his elbow(this ALSO has been discussed ad nauseum). since players drop their elbow before contact, their cue is already well along to being level.

have you ever seen your stroke on video?

in any case, as you say, we are all different. the efren video is a rare one where you catch a stroke from the side view. unfortunately all pool games are shot from the one end table position. i think i'll take a look at my crane/balsis tape as that game is shot from several vantage points....and report back.

see ya.

 

[Mark Avlon]

bruin70,

I agree that a slight variance from perpendicular will typically have a small effect. This is why perpendicular is one of the reasons that perpendicular is the sweet spot. When a student cannot, or will not, develop a good pendulum stroke, I make sure that they understand the magnitude and consequence of their error(s), hoping that they will later choose to, and know how, to fine tune their stroke.

I also agree that dropping the elbow will have a much more significant impact, as will other flaws that can occur with mechanics and the shooting sequence.

 

[COLLECTION GURU]

I Would Pay To See 40 Mph; Have Helmet For 50

It varies from cue to cue. My Kikel balances about 10 inches below the joint (with the shaft attached). It's a little bit butt heavy. I know my buddy's Schon is only about 6 or 7 inches below the joint.

There's an unnatural hyping of break cues these days. If you ask me, a break cue is something to use to protect your playing cue. I used to break with my playing cue but I've gone through 6 shafts and countless ferrules. I'm not going to risk my new cue. Now I just use a house cue. Why spend a couple hundred bucks on something I'll probably break (no pun intended). I say, "If you like, use it."

P.S. I break hard. Really hard. 40 mph is about 80%. Any harder than that and I risk injuring people on the other side of the room.

DREW; HOW WAS THIS SPEED MEASURED? HOPE NOT LIKE BOB FELLERS FASTBALL?

 

[catscradle]

Where should it be? Is it different for playing cue vs break cue?

Depends on what YOU are comfortable with.

 

[Runnin8]

Measure your own break speed..

My son and I did his science experiment to find the relationship between break speed and a measure of ball spread. To find your own break speed 1) measure the distance between where your cueball rests on the table for a normal break and the headspot, subtract 2.25" for one ball diameter, 2) use sound recorder on a PC to record the sound of your break. We used a laptop with it next to the table. Most PCs can record at 44Khz, or 44 thousand times a second, more than accurate enough. Also, forget about having to get it right in the middle. Unless your break speed is near the speed of sound its a nit. Use a sound program live Wavepad to open the file and identify the peak where the cue strikes the cueball and then the peak at rack contact. If you highlight with Wavepad it will tell you to the thousandth of a second. 3) Your break speed in mph is

(distance-2.25)/12*60/88/(measured time)

Here's his result from 150 breaks along with an example of determining the time increment.