Ball in Hand?
- Thread starter Nostroke
- Start date
Ball in Hand
That pocket is consider a rail is my way of thinking. I may be wrong and if so I will welcome enlightment on this matter.It had to hit the back of the pocket to come out.--Smitty
That pocket is consider a rail is my way of thinking. I may be wrong and if so I will welcome enlightment on this matter.It had to hit the back of the pocket to come out.--Smitty
sjm said:
Thanks SJM. No i didnt know that they made that ruling. I was there and rememeber the brutal pockets though. I think last year they put some fabric or something on the back of the pockets to prevent that.
Actually i thought I read in one of those ask-the-ref things that it was indeed a foul.
Last edited:
Nostroke said:
I've heard both sides of the argument, but I'm relating how it was ruled on the one occasion I saw it happen in competition.
As we know, there are BCA rules, WPA rules, Eurotour rules, WPBA rules, UPA rules, and about 8 trillion other versions of the rules, so there may not even exist an answer!
Just when we thought we had it all figured out...
I've been playing for years and thought I'd seen everything (including 2 balls jammed over the end of the slate shelf in a pocket twice!), but I've never even thought about this. Nice post!
I've been playing for years and thought I'd seen everything (including 2 balls jammed over the end of the slate shelf in a pocket twice!), but I've never even thought about this. Nice post!
No foul, but man i hate that when that happens, split the pocket and the ball comes flying back out, this is why i don't like pocketing balls dead center * only wishes i was that gooder lol.
sjm said:
Aside from the precedent you offer, I think it's important to recognize the spirit of the rule. It's there so that people aren't tapping balls around the table as a means of leaving someone safe. Balls popping out of pockets was likely not in the minds of the people who created this ruling but had it been, it can be fair to say that they would rule such a shot as legal.
In general, I think it's important to recognize what a rule is trying to accomplish. Aside from the specifics (or lack thereof), one needs to have a general understanding when making a ruling that no book at hand covers. An interesting opposite to this scenario would be this: What would the ruling be if, on the lag, one player froze his ball to the head-rail and the other left his in the jaws of the corner-pocket (technically further uptable than his opponent's frozen ball)?
Jude Rosenstock said:
do it over. no game is being played yet, and it's only a lag.
or if a ruling has to be made, it's quite obvious that the cb laying in the pocket was hit too hard and would've bounced off the rail. or that it was an illegal lag, and the frozen ball wins.
but you're right,,,there should be common sense. but for players on the short end of the stick, there's no such thing as common sense
Jude Rosenstock said:
Covered by the rules, the one with the lagged ball beyong the nose of the pocket loses. Quote from WPA world rules:
"It is an automatic loss of the lag if:
(a) The ball crosses into the opponent's half of the table;
(b) The ball fails to contact the foot cushion;
(c) The ball drops into a pocket;
(d) The ball jumps the table;
(e) The ball touches the long cushion;
(f) The ball rests within the corner pocket and past the nose of the head cushion, or;
(g) The ball contacts the foot rail more than once. If both players violate automatic-loss lag rules, or if the referee is unable to determine which ball is closer, the lag is a tie and is replayed. "
To foul that shot would be completely against the spirit of the reason the rail hit / ball pocketed rule was brought in. Why penalize a player further for a mishap originating from crappy equipment. It would be better that the ball be replaced in the pocket....except as it often comes out and disturbs balls this makes it impractical....also, some jump outs are contributed to by playing to hard or jumping the OB into the pocket.
Anyway, a related story is when I was playing a very important frame, with 2 shots for a pretty good chance to finish and win. The OB jumped out of the back of the pocket and hit my CB into another pocket. So not only did I not have one shot remaining, my opponent now had 2 shots. Ouch!
Anyway, a related story is when I was playing a very important frame, with 2 shots for a pretty good chance to finish and win. The OB jumped out of the back of the pocket and hit my CB into another pocket. So not only did I not have one shot remaining, my opponent now had 2 shots. Ouch!
Jude Rosenstock said:
Hey Jude-I agree regarding the spirit of the rule and i would never try to call this but the Spirit of the Rule does not always prevail.
How about Efren not 'calling the nine' at Mohegan Sun. The rule is there to prevent someone from lucking the nine in. This did not happen but Efren lost the game. This was a black eye for pool IMHO. In such a tournament the ref should be able to determine if the ball was made in the intended pocket and give him the win. if there is any doubt that is another story-the player loses.
Nostroke said:
Consider that you're using the word "rail." Normally we hit a cushion, which is connected to the rail. The pocket is part of "the rail."
I think the current rules or updated rules are/do address this by the use of the word "rail." I believe Bob Jewett has addressed this before also.
"(b) Cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a cushion or any part of the rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul."
Fred <~~~ no foul
Last edited:
TX Poolnut said:I've been playing for years and thought I'd seen everything (including 2 balls jammed over the end of the slate shelf in a pocket twice!), but I've never even thought about this. Nice post!
Yup, I have been playing a few years, but you would think you have seen it all when it comes to the rules. Good post.
My .02 cents
I know that is so upsetting when that happens ... lol
About like the 3 second rule on a ball on the edge of
a pocket, and it finally drops in after 3 seconds, and it
gets respotted to where it was. What is normal about
that? If you got it to the point where it finally went in
before the other guy shoots, what is normal about spotting
it up (to a point other than where it was originally, obviously)
so your opponent can shoot it?
I guess the only thing to tell you is to kiss it off another
ball first before zooming it into the side, so you can get
kissed too .... lol
I know that is so upsetting when that happens ... lol
About like the 3 second rule on a ball on the edge of
a pocket, and it finally drops in after 3 seconds, and it
gets respotted to where it was. What is normal about
that? If you got it to the point where it finally went in
before the other guy shoots, what is normal about spotting
it up (to a point other than where it was originally, obviously)
so your opponent can shoot it?
I guess the only thing to tell you is to kiss it off another
ball first before zooming it into the side, so you can get
kissed too .... lol