Banned

[Jude Rosenstock]

The BCA does not collect a weekly fee from the players or LO like the APA does. The only money sent to the league is the once per year league membership fee of $10. The prize money for the tournaments comes from the team entry fees. For the nationals, it is $125/team for the trophy division which only plays for trophies. $250/team for Open division and $500/team for Master's division.

The BCA and APA are almost incomparable. I mean, the APA is EXTREMELY centralized and require an active staff. The BCA is a confederation - most of its staff is localized in poolrooms. So, even though the BCA doesn't require much in terms of dues, usually your local chapter will charge something. On the otherhand, the APA's dues may not be terribly much but they don't send a terribly large portion of its membership to Las Vegas. 700,000 members and yet, only about 4,000 members compete in August.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Just a couple of questions?

How much did you get back from the theater the last time you saw a movie?

How much money did you get back from your landlord/mortage lender?

How much did you give back to your employer from your paycheck?

It doesn't matter how much the league operator makes for running a successful business. I play in an APA league where there are 600+ teams and I hope the league operator is making at least 200,000.00 profit per year for doing so.

Why is it that alot of poolplayers feel that somebody owes them something? The bottom line is:
k
If you don't like the adminision fee DON'T PLAY! To say the operator is stealing is a complete joke!

I have been to a few movies and I never finished high enough to collect my prize. Anyone ever finish in the 1st or 2nd at a movie theater and know what the prize breakdown is?

The mortgage company gave me nothing but the house is worth more this year than last.

I own a construction company so, yes I did give back. Discounts to my customers not money to my employer.

What I have the problem with is this....

This isn't a league operator like the APA with hundreds of members and multiple locations requiring travel. It is a room owner that also holds weekly 8 ball and 9 ball events. The prize breakdown during these events are

$12 entry with $2 going to house.

When I joined the league I was expecting the same breakdown as his weekly tournaments and previous BCA leagues that I played at other locations. After playing most of the season, someone mentioned the prize money and I thought they must be wrong. I asked the room owner and he showed me the prize payouts. He told me the league wasn't for good players like me because we look at the prize money. I quit the league. Said nothing at this point. I called Bill S at BCA and he thought the room owner was doing alright for himself with those figures.

Now, the people that play this league is a different looking group than in the tournaments. Most have not played in the tournaments, which the room runs, and didn't know most of the money was returned or didn't know how much he keeps. Everyone I talked with thought $4 to house and $10 to pot. I told the players he is taking advantage of them. The players here are not good or regular players... If they were, no one would play with this prize structure. That is why I feel he is ripping/taking advantage of them. Was I out of line maybe, should the players know to look at other locations next year and ask about prize money. I think they should and that is why I told them. I felt ripped off and so did some of the players. Did we get ripped, NO, I should have asked before starting the league. If he said that he paid $14,000 and only paid $7700 at year end, we would have been ripped. I guess taken advantage of would have been better. How ever you look at it, the $$ breakdown should have been available before the last 4 weeks of play. I could have saved $300 in entry fees.

I should add, Bill S at BCA said he would look into this prize breakdown at this location and took all the information... so, he must think that it is a little high for BCA league operators. Just guessing what he thinks.

 

[MikeM]

Yes, but hookers must love me!

Jason is a good guy always willing to share his knowledge with other players of lesser skill. Unlike most strong players he doesn't hustle nor is he money hungry. The fact is that he quit the league on a principle.

There are other strong players in the league who have stated that they will not be back due to either the prizes or team stacking. Others don't care.

As for you, well, you got no clue.

The only clues I have are what Jason has provided. I'd love to hear from the owner but I don't think that's going to happen. All I, and many others in this post have tried to point out is that the owner isn't really stealing as Jason accused him of doing. Some people just don't want to listen.

The gimme, gimme part of my response was more towards the other poster who wants a discount on table time for being a league member. As has been repeatedly stated in other threads, room owners can't possibly make a profit on table time. Pool players should be supporting room owners and not always asking for more, more, more. There won't be any pool halls if this attitude prevails.

I'm sure Jason is a wonderful guy when he isn't accusing someone of stealing on a message board.

MM...where ARE those hookers???

 

[sixpack]

Jason,

What outcome were you looking for when you confronted the bar owner?

I would pay $14 for $9.60 worth of table time in a league because it is worth it to me to be able to go to a place and meet up with good players and compete and have someone else organize it, track statistics and determine winners and associated payouts.

If that's not worth $4.40 to you, it seems that the sensible thing to do would be to not play.

Accusing the bar owner of stealing is not only incorrect, but it could be construed as slander. If you did it in front of people then he could demonstrate damages and you could end up paying him much more than the league fees. Especially if you talked other people into leaving by convincing them that he was 'stealing' from them. You probably got off easy by being banned.

How would you like it if one of your construction company customers accused you of 'stealing' while doing a job for him while you were having a consultation with new customers? Take it a step further and say that you gave him an estimate and he okayed it and paid in full. How would you react? Then later decided it was too much? I certainly wouldn't like it.

Do you think that because he's a room owner he's not a human being with feelings? That he is supposed to be above anger when falsely accused?

In this thread, nobody has called you names, accused you of a crime or tried to damage your construction business. Yet you're getting defensive and angry. All people are doing is trying to reason with you.

Whether the amount withheld is too much or too little is really his call. He will take as much as he can while getting people to play. That's business. If players vote with their $$$ then he'll put more back in or stop doing the league altogether and have a 'ladies' night instead.

Cheers,
~rc

 

[Stones]

I play in a BCA league in San Antonio. Sometimes, it amazes me what a sweet deal we have and how there is always a few people who still whine and complain about the money.

Here's the deal:

The LO is the manager of the room. It is strictly a money league. No trophies.

We pay $10 a week per person to play. The league has two seasons a year, one 8 ball and the other, 9 ball, each lasting 16 to 20 weeks. I played 12 weeks which means I paid $120 in fees last season.

Our team finished first. I got $240 for my cut of the first place team finish, another $100 for top shooter and another $70 bucks for table runs.
So, I ended up making a little money.

Now, here's what the league and room throw into the mix:

All teams get some money at the end of the season depending on how they finished.

One team's name is drawn each night and they receive a free round of drinks plus, the manager will buy you a drink occasionally on her own. Just a super lady!

At the end of the league, we have a catered party with pizza, barbarque and an open bar plus a tournament with a $100 added.

AND NOW FOR THE BIG ONE! WHEN YOU JOIN THE LEAGUE, YOU ARE GIVEN A CARD WHICH ENTITLES YOU TO FREE POOL ANYTIME FROM SUNDAY THROUGH THURSDAY!!!!!

Kind'a hard deal to beat, wouldn't you say?

And still, some players gripe! Go figure!

Stones

 

[Jason Robichaud]

I play in a BCA league in San Antonio. Sometimes, it amazes me what a sweet deal we have and how there is always a few people who still whine and complain about the money.

Here's the deal:

The LO is the manager of the room. It is strictly a money league. No trophies.

We pay $10 a week per person to play. The league has two seasons a year, one 8 ball and the other, 9 ball, each lasting 16 to 20 weeks. I played 12 weeks which means I paid $120 in fees last season.

Our team finished first. I got $240 for my cut of the first place team finish, another $100 for top shooter and another $70 bucks for table runs.
So, I ended up making a little money.

Now, here's what the league and room throw into the mix:

All teams get some money at the end of the season depending on how they finished.

One team's name is drawn each night and they receive a free round of drinks plus, the manager will buy you a drink occasionally on her own. Just a super lady!

At the end of the league, we have a catered party with pizza, barbarque and an open bar plus a tournament with a $100 added.

AND NOW FOR THE BIG ONE! WHEN YOU JOIN THE LEAGUE, YOU ARE GIVEN A CARD WHICH ENTITLES YOU TO FREE POOL ANYTIME FROM SUNDAY THROUGH THURSDAY!!!!!

Kind'a hard deal to beat, wouldn't you say?

And still, some players gripe! Go figure!

Stones

That one is a great deal. No top shooter, most improved or anything like that here. Crap, hope people there support that owner.

Glade I don't live in U.S. if a person can get sued that easily. I would live in court. I alway have an opioning an usually voice it.

I have been told that this owner likes to keep bar staff tips if they make mistakes. The tips are collected nightly, held by the owner and paid out on pay day. One told me he forgot to do dishes when closing and the owner kept 2 weeks tips. What would you call that? Chance and his right to make money to pay his expenses.

 

[jukeboxjon]

Jason i completly agree with your stand i have played in leagues for years apa bca vnea and with the exception of apa which is a different game intirely
all monies paid back ,were in a fairer amount to the players then what this room owner is doing if not outright thievery i say it at least shows his distain for the people helping his business remain afloat , but some people think its thier given right to get over on people and to profit without effect to thier understanding of what clientel really means, but in the end its a losing proposition for people will turn to better places once they learn the truth for themselves, i for one applaud you for your stand to let fellow players know the advantage being taken them

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jason i completly agree with your stand i have played in leagues for years apa bca vnea and with the exception of apa which is a different game intirely
all monies paid back ,were in a fairer amount to the players then what this room owner is doing if not outright thievery i say it at least shows his distain for the people helping his business remain afloat , but some people think its thier given right to get over on people and to profit without effect to thier understanding of what clientel really means, but in the end its a losing proposition for people will turn to better places once they learn the truth for themselves, i for one applaud you for your stand to let fellow players know the advantage being taken them

Well, that's not fair to say, either. You have to look at the business-side of it. There are poolrooms closing EVERYWHERE. I would rather play in a room that relies on the revenue generated from a league than have no room at all. It's very difficult to judge a situation from our online perspective. At the very least, no matter how right or wrong Jason may be, he should have stated his beef privately.

 

[catscradle]

First, I think if the guy choose to give NO prize money at all that would be his perogative. Players are free to come or go if they don't like it, that is their perogative. If he winds up with an empty league, he'd have to reconsider, that's the free enterprise system. Whenever I hear players complain about some tournament or league or tour having lousy payouts, my first thought is well then don't play in it. Simple.

I don't however, understand at all why the OP was banned for speaking out. Though, that again is the owner's perogative. If he was actively recruiting the participants away, I could see the point, but not if he was only grumbling and whining.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Does anyone here operate a BCA league or do so in the past. Does BCA recommend or want a certain amount of prize money returned or do they not involve them self in this part? It is the BCA's name on this league, so they stand to lose members next year!

 

[supergreenman]

Does anyone here operate a BCA league or do so in the past. Does BCA recommend or want a certain amount of prize money returned or do they not care? It is the BCA's name on this league, so they stand to lose members next year!

Why don't you start your own league, it's not all that hard to do. Everything you need including sanctioning from the Canadian Cue Sports Assn. you can get from this web page.

http://www.cdnqsport.com/home.aspx

To quote one of those silly Canadian 80s bands, "If you don't like what you got, why don't you change it...."

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Why don't you start your own league, it's not all that hard to do. Everything you need including sanctioning from the Canadian Cue Sports Assn. you can get from this web page.

http://www.cdnqsport.com/home.aspx

To quote one of those silly Canadian 80s bands, "If you don't like what you got, why don't you change it...."

I don't play leagues normally. This year is the first time in 4 years. the format doesn't favor some players. I like tournament play cause if I lose it's my fault and not someone else. I would help people here looking to start a league find a location and setup a format for prize and house fees etc.

Next to that no more league for me.

 

[Scott Lee]

Jude, buddy, you're WAY off on your numbers. Total APA membership, between the U.S., Canada, and the newest league area, Japan, is less than 250,000...still more than all the other leagues combined (BCA, VNEA, TAP)...but FAR less than 700K. Oh...and name another league, where IF you even get to the national tournament, it pays LAST place prize money! APA is the only one. Don't get me wrong...I love all league play, and believe there is room for everybody!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

700,000 members and yet, only about 4,000 members compete in August.

 

[Phidget]

I agree with the first part. But I don't think the percentage by itself tells a complete picture. In this case, here's what I think the room owner should have done. At the captain's meeting at the beginning of the year, he should have said something like the following:

Each player pays $2 per week for league administration
Each player pays $6 per week for table time, and for that the table is open to come early and practice and/or to stay late and match up with one another.

Anything above that is prize payout. You, the captains, may vote for a total weekly fee right now. The higher the fee above $8, the bigger the payouts.

This is what our league does. Set portions of the money go to green fees etc and the rest (which we vote on every now and then) goes into the kitty.

Our league is a bit different, we pay per team $24/week to cover the 4 matches and free table time before and after and prize money. The prize money goin in is $10/wk per team so $14 per team for other stuff.

It's a free country though. Noone is "wrong". Canada is a (somewhat) freemarket country and if he can charge $100 a week it is his prerogative. He gets rich or goes broke.

It is also your right to "take your football and go home". If you *****, it is his right to kick you out or appease you. He pays the price for a wrong decision.

I don't get the arguements about "he is a crappy LO" because it is business.

I also don't get the arguements about Jason and (especially) poolplayers in general being greedy. We ARE the customers and we CAN be greedy. We frequent places that we get the most for our dime, whether we are looking for good action, nice bar, hot chicks, whatever. Jason is looking for a "cheaper" payout for his pool with larger possible winnings. Nothing wrong with that, even if he can't find it.

Disclaimer:
No Poolplayers were hurt during the making of this thread.