Bar Box Players vs. 9-foot Table Players

[1 Pocket Ghost]

I'm strictly a 9-foot table/one pocket player so I don't know a lot about bar box pool and I've always wondered.....I'm always seeing posts on here about guys who can beat other guys on the bar box that they couldn't beat on a 9-footer - for instance top bar box players like: David Matlock, Jesse Bowman, Shane Van Boening, etc. can beat world champions on a bar box, that they wouldn't beat on the big table.................So my question is: What is it about the bar box that changes the equation ? - Is it the big cueball ?, the break ?, not having to make long shots ?, playing position on a table with a smaller more clustered up area ?, or ???................Ghost

 

[easy-e]

All of the above....IMO.

 

[BVal]

I'm strictly a 9-foot table/one pocket player so I don't know a lot about bar box pool and I've always wondered.....I'm always seeing posts on here about guys who can beat other guys on the bar box that they couldn't beat on a 9-footer - for instance top bar box players like: David Matlock, Jesse Bowman, Shane Van Boening, etc. can beat world champions on a bar box, that they wouldn't beat on the big table.................So my question is: What is it about the bar box that changes the equation ? - Is it the big cueball ?, the break ?, not having to make long shots ?, playing position on a table with a smaller more clustered up area ?, or ???................Ghost

I think it is all of those things you listed except for the bigger cue ball thing. Most of the small tables now days have magnetic cue balls. Shane Van Boening is good on all different size tables - he just won the 10ball championship on 9 footers. Lots of great players there. JMHO

BVal

 

[wseyller]

The bar box was designed to allow people to pocket balls easier, so that games would be shorter so that you would deposit more money into them quicker.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

My thought is that on a bar table, your mechanics don't have to be quite as good. Shorter shots and more generous sized pockets make it much easier to pocket balls and run out.

Of course, the other things that you mentioned come into play -- and you need to be good at breaking up clusters, because there will likely be more of them.

For me personally, I do very well on a bar table -- while on a 9 footer with tight pockets -- I have a tendency to rattle a lot of balls in the pocket -- where on a bar table -- I probably would have run out...

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I spent the full 10 days in Vegas just a few weeks ago for the BCA Championships so the memories of the place are still relatively fresh in my mind.

If you want to know what the barbox offers, it can be summed up rather easily. Since pocketing is not as difficult, excellent position play is at a premium. By that, I mean, 9-foot player who are regarded as excellent shotmakers are going to have a difficult time maintaining their edge if their cueball is less then spectacular. I know this description sounds obvious but seeing it played out is really a sight. The top barbox players simply play perfect rack after rack. Their position routes are very safe and they never miss.

 

[crawfish]

Totally, totally different equation

My thought is that on a bar table, your mechanics don't have to be quite as good. Shorter shots and more generous sized pockets make it much easier to pocket balls and run out.

Of course, the other things that you mentioned come into play -- and you need to be good at breaking up clusters, because there will likely be more of them.

For me personally, I do very well on a bar table -- while on a 9 footer with tight pockets -- I have a tendency to rattle a lot of balls in the pocket -- where on a bar table -- I probably would have run out...

The Break! Shotmaking (playing safe is tougher, because kicks are easier). Kicking. Plain out having the kohonas to fire that ball in instead of leaving that long rail bank. The ability of stringing racks. Cutting balls. Breaking balls out (use of English coming off of the rails). Play on slow cloth with dead rails (most of these pampered players will absolutely go bonkers when that mudball fades left or stops when they try to draw it). Loud music, drinking atmosphere. Everyone makes balls better on the barbox, but fading two or three racks and keeping your head in it. ALL of these things and more.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

My thought is that on a bar table, your mechanics don't have to be quite as good. Shorter shots and more generous sized pockets make it much easier to pocket balls and run out.

Of course, the other things that you mentioned come into play -- and you need to be good at breaking up clusters, because there will likely be more of them.

For me personally, I do very well on a bar table -- while on a 9 footer with tight pockets -- I have a tendency to rattle a lot of balls in the pocket -- where on a bar table -- I probably would have run out...

On the contrary, proper mechanics are incredibly important. Just because pocketing the ball may be easier doesn't mean you need to be less accurate. The tight confines that your position routes are restricted to require that you execute EXACTLY as planned. Any slight deviation from your intention may still pocket the ball but could leave you safe and the probability of that happening in barbox is much much higher then 9-footers.

 

[BazookaJoe]

The bar box was designed to allow people to pocket balls easier, so that games would be shorter so that you would deposit more money into them quicker.

Actually designed to fit more tables in less space.

 

[Gregg]

I spent the full 10 days in Vegas just a few weeks ago for the BCA Championships so the memories of the place are still relatively fresh in my mind.

If you want to know what the barbox offers, it can be summed up rather easily. Since pocketing is not as difficult, excellent position play is at a premium. By that, I mean, 9-foot player who are regarded as excellent shotmakers are going to have a difficult time maintaining their edge if their cueball is less then spectacular. I know this description sounds obvious but seeing it played out is really a sight. The top barbox players simply play perfect rack after rack. Their position routes are very safe and they never miss.

Good point that few bring up. I really feel that acceptable position areas are smaller, and therefore more difficult to play, on a bar table. It's easier to get out of line. You really have to spin the cue ball to get position.

 

[rackem]

Actually designed to fit more tables in less space.

What does pocket size & nappy cloth have to do with how many tables will fit?

 

[BazookaJoe]

What does pocket size & nappy cloth have to do with how many tables will fit?

What does the origin of bar tables have to do with nappy cloth and pocket size?

 

[supergreenman]

What does pocket size & nappy cloth have to do with how many tables will fit?

This is truly one of those post that leaves you scratching your head.

 

[Scottster]

I spent the full 10 days in Vegas just a few weeks ago for the BCA Championships so the memories of the place are still relatively fresh in my mind.

If you want to know what the barbox offers, it can be summed up rather easily. Since pocketing is not as difficult, excellent position play is at a premium. By that, I mean, 9-foot player who are regarded as excellent shotmakers are going to have a difficult time maintaining their edge if their cueball is less then spectacular. I know this description sounds obvious but seeing it played out is really a sight. The top barbox players simply play perfect rack after rack. Their position routes are very safe and they never miss.

Bar pool 8 ball I agree, bar pool 9-ball I dont. An excellent shotmaker playing 9-ball on the tavern table doesn't need to be as accurate with his position because the pockets are so much easier to cheat, due to their size, and run out the pattern alot easier than if it was on the 9 footers.

 

[rackem]

This is truly one of those post that leaves you scratching your head.

No head scatching needed. It is of course a given that you can fit more barboxes in less space. But as far as actual table specs. I am merely reaffirming the above posted statement that barbox standard nappy cloth and pocket size and facing cut was choosen for ease of play. Thus making games end quicker and require more quarters to be deposited.

 

[BazookaJoe]

No head scatching needed. It is of course a given that you can fit more barboxes in less space. But as far as actual table specs. I am merely reaffirming the above posted statement that barbox standard nappy cloth and pocket size and facing cut was choosen for ease of play. Thus making games end quicker and require more quarters to be deposited.

But these things do not a bar table make

 

[rackem]

But these things do not a bar table make

I sure do agree there is nothing like the tweak for your playing confusion roll that most of them have.

I have played on some pretty nice barboxes with nice cloth and tight pockets. Actually one of my favorite spots has 4X8 barboxes that are real nice.

Though, I do think Simonis is to fast for small barboxes.

 

[Cornerman]

I sure do agree there is nothing like the tweak for your playing confusion roll that most of them have.

I have played on some pretty nice barboxes with nice cloth and tight pockets. Actually one of my favorite spots has 4X8 barboxes that are real nice.

Though, I do think Simonis is to fast for small barboxes.

At the National events this year, we (BCA, VNEA) used the 7' Diamond Smart Tables. Many didn't realize it, but 100 of those tables for the amateur event had the 4 1/2" pockets. The rest were 4 9/16". My local pool hall has 9' Brunswick Gold Crowns with nearly 4 3/4" pockets. Do the math.

All of the tables at the Nationals had the faster worsted cloth. My local pool hall with the 9' Brunswick tables do not. That is, pocket size and cloth do not a bar table make.

A bar box is the size. Many table manufacturers make whatever they want for pockets. That's why we need standardization. Some pockets are just too big. But, that's true for all tables, regardless of the size. All Dynamo and Valley bar boxes, the side pockets are much smaller than a 9' table. I'll guess up to a full inch smaller. Do the math.

I think that those who get to play and watch at the Nationals get to see what the difference is between excellent bar table pool vs. excellent pool player playing on bar table. Too many people (who don't go to these events) judge their game on a bar pool based on shotmaking and based on playing the local scene. If that's your take, you need an enlightening.

As Jude said, the top bar box players put mucho effort in getting perfect cueball control and precision. The table is entirely too cluttered to get the sloppy patterns afforded by a larger table.

On this board, many people haven't given the bar box skill the respect it deserves... until they go to a National amateur event or a bar table event that features the top bar box players. And they come on here and report their change of view.

Fred

 

[Sandy]

At the National events this year, we (BCA, VNEA) used the 7' Diamond Smart Tables. Many didn't realize it, but 100 of those tables for the amateur event had the 4 1/2" pockets. The rest were 4 9/16". My local pool hall has 9' Brunswick Gold Crowns with nearly 4 3/4" pockets. Do the math.

All of the tables at the Nationals had the faster worsted cloth. My local pool hall with the 9' Brunswick tables do not. That is, pocket size and cloth do not a bar table make.

A bar box is the size. Many table manufacturers make whatever they want for pockets. That's why we need standardization. Some pockets are just too big. But, that's true for all tables, regardless of the size. All Dynamo and Valley bar boxes, the side pockets are much smaller than a 9' table. I'll guess up to a full inch smaller. Do the math.

I think that those who get to play and watch at the Nationals get to see what the difference is between excellent bar table pool vs. excellent pool player playing on bar table. Too many people (who don't go to these events) judge their game on a bar pool based on shotmaking and based on playing the local scene. If that's your take, you need an enlightening.

As Jude said, the top bar box players put mucho effort in getting perfect cueball control and precision. The table is entirely too cluttered to get the sloppy patterns afforded by a larger table.

On this board, many people haven't given the bar box skill the respect it deserves... until they go to a National amateur event or a bar table event that features the top bar box players. And they come on here and report their change of view.

Fred

Fred,

You hit the nail on the head about how all the bar boxes were in Vegas in May....the tight pockets on the Diamonds really made you focus on making a very accurate shot compared to what you can get away with on say a Valley or Dynamo. Kind of like when you play alot on a big gold crown with tight pockets and then go to the 7' Valley....pockets seem like buckets

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Bar pool 8 ball I agree, bar pool 9-ball I dont. An excellent shotmaker playing 9-ball on the tavern table doesn't need to be as accurate with his position because the pockets are so much easier to cheat, due to their size, and run out the pattern alot easier than if it was on the 9 footers.

I'll admit, playing 9-ball on a bar box has fewer position demands then 8-ball will but the game is still different which makes the requirements different, as well.

The fact is, when you're playing on a 9-foot table, you're going to take certain risks to attain position because pocketing can get very demanding. You want to minimize the number of long shots you take. Any good player will tell you this. There is SOME balance to this - on a 9-footer, there's frequently ample room to play with so if you get on the wrong side of the ball, you can take another route to get to your next shot.

On a barbox, you have to tone down your long routes, accept short-side often and in sum, really try to take advantage of the smaller equipment. If you think the pocketer is going to shoot his way out of trouble, I'll simply tell you that's contrary to what I saw in Vegas. Pocketing is so commonplace on a barbox that rarely do you see a missed shot be the determinant in a set. Often times, games are lost because a player lost the cue-ball.

Also, just because it's a barbox, doesn't mean the pockets are more forgiving. The diamonds used in the BCA Finals were NOT buckets. In fact, as you moved toward the front of the room, the tables got a little tighter and even the easier ones played very true.