Bar Box Players vs 9-Footers!

vivalaraza

vivalaraza

<----Massey Ferguson 1100
Silver Member
there has been a lot of praise lately for jesse bowman being the best bar box player on earth right now. then there are people who claim it is the old faithful, dave matlock. regardless of who you like, there is no dispute that both are amazing players and skilled tacticians on the small tables. matlock's name is synonomous with the bar boxes. there are also a slew of other road players and gamblers who have a stake in the "greatest bar box player" name game.

my question is this:

how come the great champions of the 9-footers are rarely mentioned? i am talking about earl, archer, efren, alex, rodney, varner, shannon, sigel, busta, parica, etc. even guys like gabe, chohan, tony watson, ginky, danny harriman.

does bowman/matlock play better than these guys? i know that some people say that "well, on the bar box....." can alex not play the bar box? what if those afore mentioned 9-footers played on nothing but bar boxes? what if all 9-ft tables were outlawed and everyone had to play on bar boxes from now on. would jesse and/or dave be the #1/2 players in the world? would the big table champs fade into obscurity?

what is the difference between the 9-ft champs and the bar box champs?
 
I'm going to guess that the big name touring prose seldom/never play on 7 footers and would walk off with all the money easily if the did drop down to 7 foot table competition.

My $0.02. YMMV.

LWW
 
It is totally different playing on a barbox compared to a nine footer. I'm sure all the pros you mentioned could still beat most people even on a bar box but that isn't what they are used to playing on. If that was what they practiced on and played tournaments on constantly then they would probably be just as good on them. It just depends on what you are better at playing on. I never play on bar tables except in league. The rest of the time it is on an 8 or 9 footer. There are people that beat me in league consistently on the bar tables that wouldn't stand a chance in a race to 5 on a 9 footer. Those people have hung out in bars there whole life and that's all they know how to play on. Put them on a big table and they don't know what to do. Opposite goes for me. I have problems going from normal weight cue balls that I use all the time to the stupid mudd balls on the bar tables. The rails on bar tables are more rounded and react differently than nice rails on your home 9 footer. On the other hand you can reach almost any shot on a bar table but on a 9 footer you have to play position a lot of the times so that you can reach the shot without a bridge. Just a different game on the different size tables.
 
Bar boxes vs Biggies

I have played 44 years. I grew up Pool wise on 8 and 9
footers, and only played on 7 footers when I could sneak
into a bar while I was underage (which wasn't often).
By virtue of their size, the tables accent different parts
of the game as being the hardest to do well. Certainly,
the shots on a 9 footer become harder since you opponent
usually leaves you more distance to shoot them. Kicking on
a 9 footer is harder to accomplish well. Shape on a 9 footer
is only harder when you don't have an angle to perform the
shot. I never or hardly ever play 9 footers now. The reason
is most of the money action is on bar tables, I do not need a
crutch like I do on big tables, and the action on big tables
(which are not too available in my area) is usually small potatoes.
I like 1 pocket, but I have to be in a certain mood for it. When I do
play on a big table, everyone seems surprised how well I can play
on them because they know I usually do not. The only problem that
it really presents to me is in the narrowing of the sighting for making
shots, everything else is not hard to me, anyways. I think playing
shape is generally easier on a big table, since I know my rails and
how to play shape. You also need to tune your bankshots on a
big table when coming from a bar box. Playing on a bar box, over
time, requires more finesse shots than a big table, clusters are more
important, and so are break out shots. I have seen many big table
players game go down when they play a bar box because they can
not make the necessary adjustments. Usually a bar box player, after
practicing a couple of weeks on a big table will have his big table
game up to speed. On a big table, you have certain 'outs' that you
don't so much on a bar box, like rolling an object ball up to the other
end and not having to worry about whether it can be made or not,
usually a pretty safe shot on a big table. Jump shots usually encounter
closer distances and more traffic on a bar table, and have to be performed
with more precision, taking into account that most balls are just hit
and not made. All in all, I think it is easier for a bar box player to fix
his big table game than it is for a big table player to fix his bar box
game. Why, because it is easier to 'expand' your game rather than
'contract' it, and the decision making in doing it is different.

BTW, David Matlock plays very well on big tables. I watched him
run 10 straight tables on a big table one time in a ring game with
6 other players at Rumors in Wichita.
 
Last edited:
Some of these can play bar-boxes

vivalaraza said:
there has been a lot of praise lately for jesse bowman being the best bar box player on earth right now. then there are people who claim it is the old faithful, dave matlock. regardless of who you like, there is no dispute that both are amazing players and skilled tacticians on the small tables. matlock's name is synonomous with the bar boxes. there are also a slew of other road players and gamblers who have a stake in the "greatest bar box player" name game.

my question is this:

how come the great champions of the 9-footers are rarely mentioned? i am talking about earl, archer, efren, alex, rodney, varner, shannon, sigel, busta, parica, etc. even guys like gabe, chohan, tony watson, ginky, danny harriman.

does bowman/matlock play better than these guys? i know that some people say that "well, on the bar box....." can alex not play the bar box? what if those afore mentioned 9-footers played on nothing but bar boxes? what if all 9-ft tables were outlawed and everyone had to play on bar boxes from now on. would jesse and/or dave be the #1/2 players in the world? would the big table champs fade into obscurity?

what is the difference between the 9-ft champs and the bar box champs?
Click to expand...
There are several of these players you listed who play champion level pool on bar-boxes. It's just that Jesse and Matlock have achieved that reputation for a reason. It is a different style game than on the 9-footers. Much like a person can be considered one of the best at banks, or one pocket and still be considered just a good player at 9-ball. All these guys are incredible at what they do. Sam
 
Gooder Thread,

I have this same question, i just told my teammate last league night that if we switched it up to 8 or 9 foot tables in leagues these guy wouldn't be nothing, cause all i play on is these big table, i have two eight foot tables at home and when in town i play at the hall with nine footers. And this guys play on nothing on bar box tables at bars, which is a big difference. Going from a week of playing on big tables then switching it up i have to adjust my game, there is alot more cluster of balls less room for moving the cueball around etc... But one thing remains is my shot making ability cause the tables are so small, seems like the balls are just a foot from the pockets. Which is very gooder, but i would choose a nine footer anyday over a bar box table. So back to my theory, i took another teammate that are good friends with me and played him on a big table a big difference in his play, otaye now all he plays on are the small table and can run out if given a chance, but now he can run two to three balls hehe. Got him on my play ground my battle field. And shure enough on this green rectangle i was first to step foot on and the last to step off.

But a good thread. Cole.
 
Misunderstood

i think my post got misunderstood....

you are all right about the differences between the tables and playing on them. i guess what i was getting at was people say that bowman/matlock are the "best bar box players in the world". i know that alex and rodney and those guys play 9 ft all the time. someone brought up a point that if they (alex and crew) played on bar boxes that they would be the best. i was asking if jesse and matlock were better than alex and those guys.

if alex and jesse bowman matched up on a bar box, race to 100 or something like that; who ya got?
 
moosepool said:
It is totally different playing on a barbox compared to a nine footer. I'm sure all the pros you mentioned could still beat most people even on a bar box but that isn't what they are used to playing on. If that was what they practiced on and played tournaments on constantly then they would probably be just as good on them. It just depends on what you are better at playing on. I never play on bar tables except in league. The rest of the time it is on an 8 or 9 footer. There are people that beat me in league consistently on the bar tables that wouldn't stand a chance in a race to 5 on a 9 footer. Those people have hung out in bars there whole life and that's all they know how to play on. Put them on a big table and they don't know what to do. Opposite goes for me. I have problems going from normal weight cue balls that I use all the time to the stupid mudd balls on the bar tables. The rails on bar tables are more rounded and react differently than nice rails on your home 9 footer. On the other hand you can reach almost any shot on a bar table but on a 9 footer you have to play position a lot of the times so that you can reach the shot without a bridge. Just a different game on the different size tables.
Click to expand...

I do not know what others experiences are but I play almost exclusively on 9' tables however I get many more 8 ball runs on bar boxes per play.

On bar boxes.
Even though there is more congestion, I find the congestion helps me with position play as I bump balls on occasion as they are closer and easier to manage. I also find that I am more easily able to bump a ball, get position and have the ball I bump break up a cluster for me. My experience is that it is simply easier for me anyway. Simply put, I have more opportunity on a bar box to be creative.

To answer your question, I'm with the 9' pro.
 
I personally have switched to bar boxes for the last little while, as my city isn't promoting 9-ball or games on the bigger table to any substantial degree.

I play in a bar box league, have a bar box in my rec room, and have a series of trophies and awards from bar box pool, and only 2 local awards to my name in 9 ball.

Don't get me wrong, there are some tremendous 9-ball and bar box players in my area, I just get alot more games playing on a 7 foot table than I do a 9 foot table.

As for "who would be the best" from the names you mentioned? This is what I believe and it is definately open for debate.

The 2 games are entirely different. And my theory on sports performance excellence in any sport/game demands total dedication and 100% concentration at the task at hand.

If you're trying to become the best 9 ball player, then only play 9-ball.

The mind and body become their function after you've established a set of parameters for it to follow.

You begin to make more in-depth distinctions the more you work on a certain area of your chosen sport.

So those 9 ball players would definately have to change their mental and physical approach to their game to excel at it.

And what's wonderful about most of the people you mentioned is that they've been around pocket billiards long enough to have the experience level to adapt to new situations.

I think that pocket billiard players are wonderful in that aspect that when they have a very good understanding of themselves and the game they play that they are able to adapt to a new situation my feel and instinct alone.

My best advice? Sink lots of balls. Know your speed and your stroke very well. Have a great understanding of the physics of the game and practice with dilligence.

Play your best game, always.

Richard Aubin
Visit my site, www.poolplayingtips.com
 
Im good on a 9ft, but a bar box? Id challenge any of the top 10 in the world.. no kidding, I feel confident on a 9ft but I feel like superman on a bar box...


2wld4u
 
IMO - The difference is.............

The reason that there is such a controversy about Jesse & David playing on a barbox is because of League players. There are so many new players who play on nothing but 7' tables that can relate to THE BEST on them.
The difference (again, JMHO) between playing on a barbox vs. a 9'er is not just congestion but consistency. Running 2 or 3 racks of Nine Ball on a 9'er is doing very good - BUT - to do very good on a barbox, you would need to run 6 or 7 racks to = the same recognition.
I pretty recently got to see Jesse & David play & win (2 different tourneys) in a Midwest 9 ball tourney @ The Break. I got to study both games and approaches and I have a firm opinion.
I agree that if Efren or any one of the top 10 9' table players were to concentrate on just barboxes - they would also play as well (maybe better) than Jesse or David. But why would they? The win money (as sick as it is) available to tournaments is still better on the 9'ers than on the barboxes.
That is another good reason to pull hard for Kevin & the IPT.

TY & GL
 
Yesterday I got done with a long practice session on a nine-footer, working on my fundamentals and some stroke shots. Later that night I was walking around the neigbourhood when I decided to stop into a dive with 2 bar boxes (Robert's on Moody, for you MA locals) and was playing the regulars for beers. The difference was ridiculous; after warming up on the 9 footer it felt like I had to TRY to be out of shape on the small table. I ran a 3 pack without trying too hard, and sinking a ton of balls on the break is easy. Especially in eight-ball, you can use the second-ball break, drown half the balls and still have an open table ( as opposed to the balls being clustered on the big table with that break). The table felt like it had more pocket then rail. The major adjustment I had to make to my game was to play for sharper angles so I wouldn't have to stroke the heavy ball on a full-ball shot. Whenever I do play on the small table, it is hard for me to take it seriously, it doesn't feel like "real" pool. I'm no pro; if pool on the small table was a joke for me I doubt the pros would have any problem.
 
henho - Your playing the wrong players for the wrong amount.

henho said:
Yesterday I got done with a long practice session on a nine-footer, working on my fundamentals and some stroke shots. Later that night I was walking around the neigbourhood when I decided to stop into a dive with 2 bar boxes (Robert's on Moody, for you MA locals) and was playing the regulars for beers. The difference was ridiculous; after warming up on the 9 footer it felt like I had to TRY to be out of shape on the small table. I ran a 3 pack without trying too hard, and sinking a ton of balls on the break is easy. Especially in eight-ball, you can use the second-ball break, drown half the balls and still have an open table ( as opposed to the balls being clustered on the big table with that break). The table felt like it had more pocket then rail. The major adjustment I had to make to my game was to play for sharper angles so I wouldn't have to stroke the heavy ball on a full-ball shot. Whenever I do play on the small table, it is hard for me to take it seriously, it doesn't feel like "real" pool. I'm no pro; if pool on the small table was a joke for me I doubt the pros would have any problem.
Click to expand...

Try playing a seasoned bar table player for $50 or $100 - I think you will find your bar table game a lot more challenging.

TY & GL
 
vivalaraza said:
i think my post got misunderstood....

you are all right about the differences between the tables and playing on them. i guess what i was getting at was people say that bowman/matlock are the "best bar box players in the world". i know that alex and rodney and those guys play 9 ft all the time. someone brought up a point that if they (alex and crew) played on bar boxes that they would be the best. i was asking if jesse and matlock were better than alex and those guys.

if alex and jesse bowman matched up on a bar box, race to 100 or something like that; who ya got?
Click to expand...


Anyone who thinks that Alex can not play on the small track is uninformed. Alex gave Mcready the 7 or 8ball playing ten ball on the bar box at Derby city a couple of years ago and steam rolled him. Alex may be the most talented player ever. I have seen him play all games at a world class level while never practicing. He played the best American straight pool player even to 300 and took down the cash. If Alex prepared for a few weeks to play Jesse a 20 ahead set on the bar box for 100k I like Alex.

Huck
 
I think bar table play is misunderstood by many pool players. Even seasoned players sometimes mistake bar tables are inferior cousins to 9 foot tables.

Bar table play is a different game, much like 5x10 or even snooker are different games. At the highest level of play, bar table champions are every bit as good as the champions of other types of tables.

Many here have already listed a number of specific skills that are emphasized on bar boxes, but let me add one more: The ability to fade higher levels of heat. Many big table players I see play good with an opponent firing back at them and stringing 1-3 racks together. They are completely inexperienced with fading the bar box action where at the highest level, running 4-6 racks is fairly commonplace.
 
OldHasBeen said:
Try playing a seasoned bar table player for $50 or $100 - I think you will find your bar table game a lot more challenging.

TY & GL
Click to expand...

It's not more challenging to play on a bar box. It's easier! That's how it's different. The difference between 9' ers and 7' ers is the things that are most important.

On 7' ers it's speed control that's most important, on 9' ers it's aiming and accurate shot control that's most important. Shot making accuracy is no where near as necesary on seven footers. The pockets are monstrous.

I can fudge the pockets on a bar box so much it isn't even funny. I don't play on bar boxes because it will throw off my game on nine footers. The bar box favors the lesser player so long as they have good speed control.

Because it's soo easy to fudge pockets and make balls on bar boxes, when you get back on a ninefooter, you can't get away with being that far off on the accuracy of the aim. So, IMNSHO, bar boxers cannot adjust to nine footers while nine foot players with good speed control can easily adjust to seven footers.
 
huckster said:
Anyone who thinks that Alex can not play on the small track is uninformed. Alex gave Mcready the 7 or 8ball playing ten ball on the bar box at Derby city a couple of years ago and steam rolled him. Alex may be the most talented player ever. I have seen him play all games at a world class level while never practicing. He played the best American straight pool player even to 300 and took down the cash. If Alex prepared for a few weeks to play Jesse a 20 ahead set on the bar box for 100k I like Alex.

Huck
Click to expand...


i was up there when it went down! it was middle of the week, like a thursday, and everybody was in the hallway drinking after midnite; i mean EVERYBODY. shannon was drunk and poppin his mouth off and almost got his ass kicked by some old fat local dude. he was asking alex for the 9 ball playing 10 ball and alex wouldn't do it. alex said the only thing he would bet on was that he had the shortest...uh...."manhood" in the room and that he could masturbate faster than anyone. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP, I SWEAR!

somehow someone made a proposition of alex giving keith the 7 ball playing 9 ball on the 7-ft diamonds upstairs with the big cue ball instead of the red circle. everybody goes upstairs; probably a couple hundred people crammed into that room. the money men start seeing who all wants side bets and everyone is trying to bet on keith. well, they were betting on keith also so they had to find action on the other side. they finally just yelled out "Is there anyone in here who DOESN'T like keith?"

so the money is up and they had the cue ball but it got stuck in the table. the air just came out of the room. you could feel it. it was like someone missing a game-winning free throw with no time remaining (like that kid from memphis last year against louisville). they decided to play the game with the regular cue ball and alex won a 10 ahead, or maybe 12 ahead, in about 45 minutes! it wasn't even close. alex is SUPERB on the bar boxes!
 
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