Barry Behrman responds to ABP press release
- Thread starter Mt. Cheverest
- Start date
ABP Past Attempts to Work w/Barry Behrman - Today, 06:03 PM
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Contrary to what some people are saying, the first official ABP meeting with Barry Berman was in May 2010 in Las Vegas with Johnny Archer, Thorsten Hohmann and Stevie Moore.
Barry made absolute assurances that the money would be paid on time and no one would leave being owed anything. The players requested for the added money and entries to be put up ahead of time. Behrman said it would be too difficult. So the players decided to support him even without putting money in escrow or a 3rd party. Despite a full 256 player field, a top gate, and many sponsors, the players were still not paid in full including the champion Darren Appleton.
Still the ABP players supported him and gave him another chance at the Masters. Behrman advertised this event as $35,000 added and later reduced it to $30,000 the week before, and then reduced it again on the first day of the event. Each time without notifying the players or acknowledging that he once again broke his word.
The players were again paid late. Mika Immonen the champion is still owed $10,000 to this day, more than 3 months later.
During all this time there have several meetings, phone calls, emails with Barry. On one occassion when Barry was notified that if players were not going to be paid that there had to be consequences Behrman left a message on Archer's phone that cannot be repeated due to its vulgarity. In another attempt by Archer, Barry hung up the phone on him. Shawn Putnam volunteered to call him at another time and Behrman hung up on him too. In an email from Behrman sent to Archer, the email disgracefully insulted Archer with swear words.
To sum, ABP has been trying to work with Barry Behrman for 14 months on issues with the US Open and already gave him two more chances (not counting times even before 2010) at his 2010 US Open and 2011 Masters where he not only broke his promises, but also refused to listen or work with Archer and the ABP professionals.
This has not been a hasty decision, but one that has been long discussed and worked on for over a year.
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Contrary to what some people are saying, the first official ABP meeting with Barry Berman was in May 2010 in Las Vegas with Johnny Archer, Thorsten Hohmann and Stevie Moore.
Barry made absolute assurances that the money would be paid on time and no one would leave being owed anything. The players requested for the added money and entries to be put up ahead of time. Behrman said it would be too difficult. So the players decided to support him even without putting money in escrow or a 3rd party. Despite a full 256 player field, a top gate, and many sponsors, the players were still not paid in full including the champion Darren Appleton.
Still the ABP players supported him and gave him another chance at the Masters. Behrman advertised this event as $35,000 added and later reduced it to $30,000 the week before, and then reduced it again on the first day of the event. Each time without notifying the players or acknowledging that he once again broke his word.
The players were again paid late. Mika Immonen the champion is still owed $10,000 to this day, more than 3 months later.
During all this time there have several meetings, phone calls, emails with Barry. On one occassion when Barry was notified that if players were not going to be paid that there had to be consequences Behrman left a message on Archer's phone that cannot be repeated due to its vulgarity. In another attempt by Archer, Barry hung up the phone on him. Shawn Putnam volunteered to call him at another time and Behrman hung up on him too. In an email from Behrman sent to Archer, the email disgracefully insulted Archer with swear words.
To sum, ABP has been trying to work with Barry Behrman for 14 months on issues with the US Open and already gave him two more chances (not counting times even before 2010) at his 2010 US Open and 2011 Masters where he not only broke his promises, but also refused to listen or work with Archer and the ABP professionals.
This has not been a hasty decision, but one that has been long discussed and worked on for over a year.
This is a very interesting "other side of the story." If the players don't want to attend, that is certainly their right. I don't blame the players one bit for wanting to get paid in a timely manner. Ultimately though, it's my opinion that the players will be shooting themselves in the foot if they start boycotting major tournaments. Where will the opportunities to play for big money come from if the large promoters dry up due to lack of player participation? This may change the whole model and state of the professional game, but then again . . . maybe that's not a bad thing.
Maybe pro tournaments will die out and be replaced by Internet streamed "challenge matches." I guess I'll just sit back and watch it all unfold.
much respect to the players for taking this stance
I've been saying for years that secured prize money should be the defacto standard and the way to get there was via boycotts
I've been saying for years that secured prize money should be the defacto standard and the way to get there was via boycotts
Cleary and others, obviously you've never played pool for a living.
Another big difference between your job and the professional players, is that we have to spend $1000-3000 out of our own pocket to get to a tournament before we hit a ball, and then IF we perform well we make money. And at times all we get back is our expense money, and less than that. If we perform badly, no money and we are out of pocket.
In the US Open 9ball case, we are not even sure when we would get paid even after spending $ to get there.
Not too many people I know pay to goto work and may or may not get paid.
That's the kind of pressure most don't face. And that's why no one on the forums or pool industry will ever be able to relate to that unless you have been there.
Originally Posted by cleary
The convention center wouldn't take a postdated check. The bleacher rental company wouldn't take an IOU. The table movers and mechanics wanted money before they got to the open. Oh, and the spectators won't buy seats, shirts, food before they start the event. Does anyone see a pattern here?
Shawn, Johnny, Charlie... whoever this is, I'm sorry but its a two way street. You're not doing manual labor, under the table. Its not 'dig the ditch, get your cash'. This is how things work in the professional world. The fact that he even has cash to pay ANYONE is simply amazing. CASH! Only in pool man... only in pool. That's funny!
I'm a professional in my industry and I work for very large clients. Nearly always I work for clients who are working for a client who are working for a client. The money exchange is never quick. Sometimes up to a year. It's my responsibly to manage my money. The larger the amount, usually the longer it takes. Do they have the money, of course, but I'm not the only bill they got.
How does this translate? Well, I think players need to manage their money better. I do understand you want to get paid, and you should. But if you have to wait a month or even 3 months to get paid $10k, $20k or even $50k... I think you should be more thankful that you had the opportunity to win that amount than worry about how quickly you can get it. A tournament like the US Open doesn't happen weekly.
Take a look at the lotto. Say you win $20million. YEAAAA... let me hold a hundo! But for real, say you win. You got a choice to make. Do you want a lump sum NOW or do you want it broken up? A pool player wants its ALL NOW!!!!! Well, all now means a lot less. Its the sucker move.
So would you rather win $15k and have to wait 3 months to get it or win nothing at all? This boycott is exactly that.
Another big difference between your job and the professional players, is that we have to spend $1000-3000 out of our own pocket to get to a tournament before we hit a ball, and then IF we perform well we make money. And at times all we get back is our expense money, and less than that. If we perform badly, no money and we are out of pocket.
In the US Open 9ball case, we are not even sure when we would get paid even after spending $ to get there.
Not too many people I know pay to goto work and may or may not get paid.
That's the kind of pressure most don't face. And that's why no one on the forums or pool industry will ever be able to relate to that unless you have been there.
Originally Posted by cleary
The convention center wouldn't take a postdated check. The bleacher rental company wouldn't take an IOU. The table movers and mechanics wanted money before they got to the open. Oh, and the spectators won't buy seats, shirts, food before they start the event. Does anyone see a pattern here?
Shawn, Johnny, Charlie... whoever this is, I'm sorry but its a two way street. You're not doing manual labor, under the table. Its not 'dig the ditch, get your cash'. This is how things work in the professional world. The fact that he even has cash to pay ANYONE is simply amazing. CASH! Only in pool man... only in pool. That's funny!
I'm a professional in my industry and I work for very large clients. Nearly always I work for clients who are working for a client who are working for a client. The money exchange is never quick. Sometimes up to a year. It's my responsibly to manage my money. The larger the amount, usually the longer it takes. Do they have the money, of course, but I'm not the only bill they got.
How does this translate? Well, I think players need to manage their money better. I do understand you want to get paid, and you should. But if you have to wait a month or even 3 months to get paid $10k, $20k or even $50k... I think you should be more thankful that you had the opportunity to win that amount than worry about how quickly you can get it. A tournament like the US Open doesn't happen weekly.
Take a look at the lotto. Say you win $20million. YEAAAA... let me hold a hundo! But for real, say you win. You got a choice to make. Do you want a lump sum NOW or do you want it broken up? A pool player wants its ALL NOW!!!!! Well, all now means a lot less. Its the sucker move.
So would you rather win $15k and have to wait 3 months to get it or win nothing at all? This boycott is exactly that.
Uncertainty
This is the central issue here. Mr. Behrman faces an uncertain amount of revenue each year against a certain amount of expense. The players who have legitimate chances of cashing high are uncertain of when they will get paid. This situation is stressful for both sides.
No promoter should ever advertise their prizes as guaranteed if in fact they are not. Also the payout schedule should be made known to the players in advance.
Traditionally in billiards during the past 30 years at least the relationship between promoters and players has been somewhat informal. Informal as in not contractually set. When a well known band goes on tour they have to have long and detailed contracts with the promoters. Certain conditions have to be met before the band will show up and perform.
In a sense each player is an individual contractor who agrees to show up and perform by paying a license fee with the understanding that if they reach a certain level then they will be remonstrated for their performance. The players may collectively bargain for any conditions that they wish to see in place.
Mr. Behrman certainly would like to have the US Open contested by the best players in the world as he knows that the fans don't show up to see shortstops. There is no easy answer but surely all both sides want is some certainty so that they can go into it with less stress and pressure.
Nothing positive will gained through this public discourse. It is already sad to see that the professionals in this sport are being attacked for their position. This is a lot of energy being spent with each side defending their position. The pros now have to deal with the railbirds on AZB and it was the wrong thing for them to interact here.
PGA players do not get involved with online discussions about PGA policies. Hopefully both sides will be able to work it out. The US Open will not be the tournament it should be without the attendance of the top players in the game. The magic of the Open, especially now that women are allowed to compete, is that it always provides a platform for a Cinderella story where the shortstop can reach a new level and pros have to fight hard for the win against amateurs from around the world.
This is the central issue here. Mr. Behrman faces an uncertain amount of revenue each year against a certain amount of expense. The players who have legitimate chances of cashing high are uncertain of when they will get paid. This situation is stressful for both sides.
No promoter should ever advertise their prizes as guaranteed if in fact they are not. Also the payout schedule should be made known to the players in advance.
Traditionally in billiards during the past 30 years at least the relationship between promoters and players has been somewhat informal. Informal as in not contractually set. When a well known band goes on tour they have to have long and detailed contracts with the promoters. Certain conditions have to be met before the band will show up and perform.
In a sense each player is an individual contractor who agrees to show up and perform by paying a license fee with the understanding that if they reach a certain level then they will be remonstrated for their performance. The players may collectively bargain for any conditions that they wish to see in place.
Mr. Behrman certainly would like to have the US Open contested by the best players in the world as he knows that the fans don't show up to see shortstops. There is no easy answer but surely all both sides want is some certainty so that they can go into it with less stress and pressure.
Nothing positive will gained through this public discourse. It is already sad to see that the professionals in this sport are being attacked for their position. This is a lot of energy being spent with each side defending their position. The pros now have to deal with the railbirds on AZB and it was the wrong thing for them to interact here.
PGA players do not get involved with online discussions about PGA policies. Hopefully both sides will be able to work it out. The US Open will not be the tournament it should be without the attendance of the top players in the game. The magic of the Open, especially now that women are allowed to compete, is that it always provides a platform for a Cinderella story where the shortstop can reach a new level and pros have to fight hard for the win against amateurs from around the world.
Sirs,
Most in the business world face this every day. Most transacting between businesses is done with net 30,60,90 day payment terms. This means the work must be performed satisfactorily, the product safely delivered before an invoice can be presented. Once that invoice is presented then the terms are that it should be paid within the time specified. Be it 30,60,90 or as in WalMart's case 180 days. Most invoices get paid within that time but often companies do not pay when they should and the creditor must chase the money.
However where you are correct is that most companies will not provide a product or service if they are uncertain as to whether or when they will get paid. Companies provide goods in full faith that when the goods are delivered then payment will follow as agreed upon.
This is your right to ask for and it should be provided to you. It is not however correct for you to assume that those of us on this forum do not understand your position. Many of us carry more risk on a weekly basis than you do in a year. Some of the people on this forum are responsible to make payrolls that are larger in one month than the entire roster of professional players can earn in one year. If those people have debtors that slow pay or default then it severely impacts their ability to continue.
Best of luck in your negotiations. You are probably not helping your cause by having this discussion on the forums.