Basic question,

[fastone371]

I like your reply, especially your well thought out reasons as to why you do what you do!

Years ago I discovered if I was out of practice I hit the cue ball about an eighth inch high or a bit less and about half that left of where I intended. This error didn't move around, it was extremely consistent.

Curiosity aroused, I tested over a dozen other players. I didn't tell them what I was testing until after a few shots, just set up a moderately tough shot on a nine foot Diamond and had them try it a few times. Out of all of the people tested from bangers through Shortstop or A plus players, only two hit the cue ball where they intended. Both were bangers that looked at the cue ball last, a question I asked after the testing. Everyone else at least thought they looked at the object ball last. Watching video of the pro's you can see many a person that advocates object ball last actually has their eyes move to the cue ball as their stick starts forward on the final stroke.

Once I told the best players what I was testing they had no trouble hitting exactly where intended. Interesting. I think I need more practice hitting the cue ball, I will worry about the object ball later!

Just a little rambling about some things your post reminded me of!

Hu

Wouldnt you be able to tell if you are mis-hitting the cue ball by shooting a stop shot and watching cue ball reaction??

 

[Swighey]

I look at the object ball last. There are elite players, in all cue sports, who look at the cue ball last - but those players are all so solid that they actually look at the object ball last before they look at the cue ball last, hope that makes sense. Most of us mere mortals, and many pros could not look at the object ball second last and then look at the cue ball without changing anything about our shot. We all think we can but we can't.

Look at the object ball last.

 

[MmmSharp]

OB unless one of the attractive waitstaff walks by. At which point i admit nothing.

 

[Pin]

Curiosity aroused, I tested over a dozen other players. I didn't tell them what I was testing until after a few shots, just set up a moderately tough shot on a nine foot Diamond and had them try it a few times. Out of all of the people tested from bangers through Shortstop or A plus players, only two hit the cue ball where they intended. Both were bangers that looked at the cue ball last, a question I asked after the testing. Everyone else at least thought they looked at the object ball last. Watching video of the pro's you can see many a person that advocates object ball last actually has their eyes move to the cue ball as their stick starts forward on the final stroke.

A question occurred to me about this post today. (Does that sound weird? I absolutely promise I haven't been thinking about this thread for the last week!)

In your experiment, did you notice whether the players took their practice strokes at one spot on the ball, and then actually hit a different spot, or whether they took their practice strokes at a different spot to where they thought they hit?

 

[ShootingArts]

A question occurred to me about this post today. (Does that sound weird? I absolutely promise I haven't been thinking about this thread for the last week!)

In your experiment, did you notice whether the players took their practice strokes at one spot on the ball, and then actually hit a different spot, or whether they took their practice strokes at a different spot to where they thought they hit?

It would have been hard to say at the time, definitely impossible after this long. I think all the practice strokes had the same error as the final stroke. We aren't talking huge errors, more like my eighth inch or a bit more. Definitely enough error to alter a shot especially when using a fair amount of spin already.

I think all of us had adjusted our game to deal with long term hitting errors, it just amazed me how prevalent they were.

Hu

 

[Pin]

Somehow it feels reassuring that the error happens on the practice strokes too.

If everybody lined up at one spot and then hit another, that would look like a much bigger problem.

 

[smoochie]

Howdy All;

Most likely been asked a few times in the past but, I'll ask it again;

Which ball do you look at last, Cue ball or Object ball? Also, why?

Thanks for your thoughts.

hank

as you're striking the cueball in the last second, looking at the cueball
as you're tip already strikes the cueball your eyes will automatically fall into the object ball.

I'm sorry but everyone does this, if someone tells you I look at cueball last then he's demonstrably mistaken or he thinks "last" as in when he hits the cueball in that exact second, but after this his eye will fall into the object ball as I said above. But he will disregard this and tell you that he looks at the cueball last when he doesn't.

 

[smoochie]

I will echo Oscar Dominguez. When asked if he looked at cue ball last, he replied “why would I look anywhere else.”

Yet I just watched and analyzed few shots of his on youtube and he did exactly what I wrote in the post above #27, he watches the object ball last. All players do this and yet they have no reference to answer this question. Literally all pool players do this.

People literally have muscle memory and don't know what theyre doing down on a shot, then they answer randomly, thats why Oscar answered you that way.

I remember an interview with johnny archer where he was asked how he aims and how he move his eyes, he DID NOT KNOW, thats a #1 player from the 90's and he was asked in a podcast in a shane vs archer match in the basement, forgot the podcast name but it was famous and he was asked around the 2013-2015 along these years, he literally didn't know how his eye was moving. That shows you that players just do what they are used to and they don't know what theyre doing.

Which is exactly why Oscar answered you that way, he doesnt know what he does when he's playing.

Everybody in this world do what I wrote in post #27, go observe. Do not ask the player, just observe.

Everyone has a certain eye pattern as he aims, this can differ from one person to another, then as you are about to shoot on the last stroke, you will look at the cueball as your tip hits it then in that same second your eyes will fall into the object ball as the cueball is moving to it, after that when the cueball strikes the object ball, your eyes will fall into the pocket.

Everyone does this, even if you answer me otherwise I will not believe you, bring a video and ill show and demonstrate that you did what I said above.

 

[Pin]

as you're striking the cueball in the last second, looking at the cueball
as you're tip already strikes the cueball your eyes will automatically fall into the object ball.

I'm sorry but everyone does this, if someone tells you I look at cueball last then he's demonstrably mistaken or he thinks "last" as in when he hits the cueball in that exact second, but after this his eye will fall into the object ball as I said above. But he will disregard this and tell you that he looks at the cueball last when he doesn't.

I would say the nub of the question is about where your eyes are as the tip strikes the cue ball. The important point, IMO, is whether you're looking at the cue ball at tip contact (and so have more info about exactly where you're hitting), or at the OB, so you're blind regarding the tip contact as it happens (but get a better view of CB hitting OB).

But it's an interesting idea that "eyes on the CB" players then shift to look at the OB immediately after tip contact. That kind of 'immediately after' head movement (assuming the head moves) would have to be a risk for bleeding over into head movement during the stroke. Do "eyes on the CB" players tend to move during the stroke? I guess you'd have to study some to check.

(When I was an "eyes on the CB" player, I tried to make a point of completing my follow-through without movement, and generally didn't see the moment of contact between CB and OB. But I think I did try to look just after completing the follow-through, usually with the OB on the way to the pocket.)

 

[smoochie]

But it's an interesting idea that "eyes on the CB" players then shift to look at the OB immediately after tip contact. That kind of 'immediately after' head movement (assuming the head moves) would have to be a risk for bleeding over into head movement during the stroke. Do "eyes on the CB" players tend to move during the stroke? I guess you'd have to study some to check.

your head doesnt have to move as you switch from looking at CB to looking at OB, well some do. It all depends on your pattern/style, alot of people have different styles.

You can do your eye/aim pattern by just moving your eye balls while your head is fixed in location, i.e. you can have this looking at cb/tip then into the OB, then back to cb/tip, then back to the OB, then within the final stroke your eye will look at the CB as it hits it then immediately go to the OB as the CB is moving towards it then your eye will also look at the pocket after CB/OB contact.

The eye pattern is different from person to person but we all share this last thing that I said upon hitting the CB you will see the CB then immediately the OB, this is a rule and you can check all pro players about this, you'll see that Iam right.

Now about the head movement it depends on the style as I said previously here, and ill give you examples.

Style #1, Head is still and fixed, the eye-ball is the one that moves (Most pro's)

Style #2, Head is fixed but eye-ball moves with the eye-brow, often you will see this player eye-brow goes up and down as he do the pattern, and in the last stroke you can see his eye-brow clearly doing exactly what I describe, as he hit the CB his eye brow is down, and in the moment of impact his eye brow moves up (Looking at the object ball here). --- Example Jushua filler and many others do this, I think Ralf Souqet also does this.

Style #3 - The whole head moves up and down, it is similar to previous case but this time its not the eyebrow + the eyeball, here in this case his whole head moves slightly and slowly up and down with his aiming pattern, this movement still is accurate as he does the same exact thing, his aiming pattern and then in the final stroke again as I said before but this time its with his whole dead. (Example David Alcaide).

You can check what I said all on youtube, just observe. And remember this, do not ask them! as they often don't know, its all automatic to them. So just watch it yourself is better than asking them.

 

[gregcantrall]

Yet I just watched and analyzed few shots of his on youtube and he did exactly what I wrote in the post above #27, he watches the object ball last. All players do this and yet they have no reference to answer this question. Literally all pool players do this.

People literally have muscle memory and don't know what theyre doing down on a shot, then they answer randomly, thats why Oscar answered you that way.

I remember an interview with johnny archer where he was asked how he aims and how he move his eyes, he DID NOT KNOW, thats a #1 player from the 90's and he was asked in a podcast in a shane vs archer match in the basement, forgot the podcast name but it was famous and he was asked around the 2013-2015 along these years, he literally didn't know how his eye was moving. That shows you that players just do what they are used to and they don't know what theyre doing.

Which is exactly why Oscar answered you that way, he doesnt know what he does when he's playing.

Everybody in this world do what I wrote in post #27, go observe. Do not ask the player, just observe.

Everyone has a certain eye pattern as he aims, this can differ from one person to another, then as you are about to shoot on the last stroke, you will look at the cueball as your tip hits it then in that same second your eyes will fall into the object ball as the cueball is moving to it, after that when the cueball strikes the object ball, your eyes will fall into the pocket.

Everyone does this, even if you answer me otherwise I will not believe you, bring a video and ill show and demonstrate that you did what I said above.

Thank you for the extended . Oh gee! Having a hard time stifling the sarcasm. Was going to ask you [snip sarcas
I will read a story instead:
Billiards as it should be played
by Willie Hoppe

page 25
Aiming

 

[Pin]

your head doesnt have to move as you switch from looking at CB to looking at OB, well some do. It all depends on your pattern/style, alot of people have different styles.

I see your point. I think most players had to work at keeping their head still (only moving the eyes), so for a player who thinks that their stroke is finished at tip contact, then glances at the OB, I'd expect them just to naturally move their head. But in practice, there must be a mix.