Basic questions on Backhand English

PKM

PKM

OB-1 Kenobi
Silver Member
I hope you don't mind me creating a new thread, maybe others will find this valuable if I get some responses. I am not very familiar with BHE, I understand the basic idea behind it, but all the physics being discussed in the other thread is too much for my pea-sized brain (I saw Colin's video which was helpful). A couple of questions:

How common is it for good players to use BHE vs. parallel English?

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if BHE is being used for all shots with English, why would there be an advantage to low-deflection shafts, rather than one that has a pivot point that you prefer?

How would you recommend that someone begin to learn how to use it? Do you think you should learn to use parallel English first?
 
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if BHE is being used for all shots with English, why would there be an advantage to low-deflection shafts, rather than one that has a pivot point that you prefer?


U wouldn't have to move your elbow or hip on an angle from the line of the shot?
 
PKM said:
I hope you don't mind me creating a new thread, maybe others will find this valuable if I get some responses. I am not very familiar with BHE, I understand the basic idea behind it, but all the physics being discussed in the other thread is too much for my pea-sized brain (I saw Colin's video which was helpful). A couple of questions:

How common is it for good players to use BHE vs. parallel English?

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if BHE is being used for all shots with English, why would there be an advantage to low-deflection shafts, rather than one that has a pivot point that you prefer?

How would you recommend that someone begin to learn how to use it? Do you think you should learn to use parallel English first?
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There wouldn't be an advantage to low deflection shafts. I even had cut the tenon and ferule off of my 314 on my predator and redrilled a new tenon so that I had the pivot point right where I wanted.

If you learn to stroke straight using BHE, (i.e. without twisting your wrist.) you'll be probably as consistent as you can possibly be.


I was first shown BHE by Efren about 7 years ago if that answers your question about big time players using BHE, after I asked him how he was doing a specific shot every time using so much english and hitting it so hard.
 
I wonder, is this what Jim Rempe used to refer to a "cross-english"? I've heard him refer to it a number of times over the years, but never got around to asking him about it.
 
I am still trying to learn this stuff myself so forgive me if I am wrong, but the way I understand it is that any time you use any kind of english on the cue ball 3 things come into play; deflection, throw and swerve. By using a low deflection shaft you are minimizing the effects of deflection, leaving you to only have to worry about throw and swerve.

I was wondering the same thing about parallel english, but what I thought I was describing as parallel english was really Front Hand English. You move your bridge hand to the left or right and pivot on the back hand. True parallel english would be (I think) if you moved your bridge hand AND your back hand to the left or right, and I don't see how you could make a shot doing that.
 
Imageek2 said:
True parallel english would be (I think) if you moved your bridge hand AND your back hand to the left or right, and I don't see how you could make a shot doing that.
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I could be stupid, but I thought that was pretty much the "standard" way of doing things, of course along with changing your aiming line to compensate for deflection and swerve (which would have to come by experience). It seems that way according to most of the instructional material I've seen.
 
PKM said:
I could be stupid, but I thought that was pretty much the "standard" way of doing things, of course along with changing your aiming line to compensate for deflection and swerve (which would have to come by experience). It seems that way according to most of the instructional material I've seen.
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It's certainly possible that the instructional materials describe applying spin that way, I am too new to the more "advanced" concepts of billiards to know for sure. I know that the first time I tried to apply spin to the ball I lined up using parallel english only to watch as the CB went flying off the tip of my stick at an angle missing the pocket completely. I thought to myself "well that must not be right" and proceeded to use BHE to achieve the results I was after. I didn't even consider changing my aim line at the time, it never occurred to me.
 
Imageek2 said:
I am still trying to learn this stuff myself so forgive me if I am wrong, but the way I understand it is that any time you use any kind of english on the cue ball 3 things come into play; deflection, throw and swerve. By using a low deflection shaft you are minimizing the effects of deflection, leaving you to only have to worry about throw and swerve.

I was wondering the same thing about parallel english, but what I thought I was describing as parallel english was really Front Hand English. You move your bridge hand to the left or right and pivot on the back hand. True parallel english would be (I think) if you moved your bridge hand AND your back hand to the left or right, and I don't see how you could make a shot doing that.
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Yes, but with BHE you don't have to worry about any of it, MUCH Anyways.
 
Imageek2 said:
It's certainly possible that the instructional materials describe applying spin that way, I am too new to the more "advanced" concepts of billiards to know for sure. I know that the first time I tried to apply spin to the ball I lined up using parallel english only to watch as the CB went flying off the tip of my stick at an angle missing the pocket completely. I thought to myself "well that must not be right" and proceeded to use BHE to achieve the results I was after. I didn't even consider changing my aim line at the time, it never occurred to me.
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Yes when you use parallel english you have to adjust your aimline. But guess what?

Once you end up adjusting your aimline with parallel english, you end up in the same position as you would be in using BHE if you're going to shoot it right.

The only difference is that you have to manually adjust with parallel enlgish either from straight up experience or with manually calculating the variables.
 
Let me amend one of my original questions as I try to read as much as I can find on the topic (which is not that much). It seems that you can't really use only BHE with a Predator or other low-deflection cue because of the long pivot point, so you need to use FHE, or as Joe Tucker said in the other BHE thread, a combination of the two.

But to use FHE, doesn't your grip hand have to be right at the pivot point? It seems that you need to find a cue with the perfect pivot point for your grip and bridge, unless you want to make significant changes. As someone else commented in an old thread on BHE, I'm concerned about the effect on proper mechanics, even if the pivot point is a good fit.

And if you use a combination of FHE and BHE, how would you figure out how to do it consistently? That might be one of those things where the pros can do it unconsciously, but in that case, is there any advice on how to use English effectively for mere mortals?

Again, I wonder how the average good player is handling this, and whether they are just using parallel with compensation. I'm at the point where I rarely attempt to use English but want to learn, which is why I ask.

Sorry for the rambling, any help appreciated.
 
I mostly use parallel english, or what is called invisable masse' where I can shoot curves and throw balls using side with a near level cue.

Here is a few useable examples.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AXQI4GWAB4IXxY1PSQU1kSQU4kYLG4kYlA4kYUf4kXwC4kXgV4kXHk4kWiuzc1uCEN@


http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AYON4GbUD2...mYCH3mXuv3mXWp3mWqx3mPQj4mbfn2mVtU2mWKW4uCMN@


the second example shows how I line up, the english, and the effect.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AAGi1Hatb2...kUJE2kSKk2lJCA3lSSj1lbRx1lYfQ1lYOS1mALW4mCri@


I also use invisable masse' on these type shots. you can also drasticaly change the angle off the rail. I find I useualy apply draw and side with a slightly elevated cue for extreme effects. great for tough situations where as otherwise you have no way out, or for tricky position. The main differance here is that you dont need to hit these super hard, you must strike the cue ball acurate however, concentrate on striking the cue ball acurate rather than trying shear force.


SPINDOKTOR
 
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vid

Besides Collin's video, are there any other videos or articles that explain BHE? I watched 1/2 of Collin's video (all I had time for), but I am still perplexed by it.

Thanks,

Dean
 
Imageek2 said:
True parallel english would be (I think) if you moved your bridge hand AND your back hand to the left or right, and I don't see how you could make a shot doing that.
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It works because you also aim to miss the target by the necessary amount to compensate for the cue ball deflection. It's much more difficult to learn because of all the variables.

From my perspective I think a beginner will have much more success much earlier on using the BHE method. I'd never heard of it before I came here, but think it's a neat trick. It has its limitations, but I can see how it would be accurate enough on most of the pool tables I've seen.

But there is nothing as accurate as calibrating your own game so you know exactly how much you will miss a shot by (and compensating aim accordingly) over varying distances, speeds, and amount of side applied. But that only comes from playing countless suck-it-and-see shots. What works for you wont be exactly the same for someone else using their cue/tip/stroke.

Having said that, if you used BHE often enough and were successful, I'm sure you'd eventually get an instinctive feel for the shots anyway, and eventually find yourself dropping into the correct (off)line without having to work it out by the numbers.

Boro Nut
 
hackerda said:
Besides Collin's video, are there any other videos or articles that explain BHE? I watched 1/2 of Collin's video (all I had time for), but I am still perplexed by it.

Thanks,

Dean
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I don't know how much simpler it could be. As long as your bridge hand is at the correct pivot point (ie the correct amount of cue is sticking out beyond your bridge hand) you just aim up to pot the ball plain centre-ball, and once you're happy that you've got the right line you move your grip hand over to apply the necessary side (english). At the correct pivot point it wont matter how much english you apply, as the corresponding cue ball deflection will always compensate so that it travels along the same line it would have done if you hit a plain center ball shot. It's not strictly true, but it's close enough to work with the margins of error you have - ie the ball will indeed go in the pocket.


Remember, your cue can only be pointing in one correct direction on any given shot. The BHE method is just a simpler way of working out where that correct direction is when you are applying side to the cue ball.

Boro Nut
 
Boro Nut said:
It works because you also aim to miss the target by the necessary amount to compensate for the cue ball deflection. It's much more difficult to learn because of all the variables.
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That is why BHE seems so much more logical to me than parallel english. It is hard enough to learn how to consistently pocket balls with no english. To have to learn how to "miss the shot in order to make it" when using english seems counter intuitive. By using BHE and finding the correct pivot point for my shaft I should be able to minimize or eliminate deflection and still aim naturally at the target.
 
The thing about BHE that usually gets overlooked is that you can apply "more" english on the CB closer to center than you can with PE.

Since your able to stay closer to center....it becomes even more beneficial to use...
 
BRKNRUN said:
The thing about BHE that usually gets overlooked is that you can apply "more" english on the CB closer to center than you can with PE.

Since your able to stay closer to center....it becomes even more beneficial to use...
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To put it bluntly BRKNRUN, no you can't. Sorry.

(If this is going to start a long physics debate, perhaps we should carry it on in the other thread that PKM refered to in his starting post.)

Jim
 
Jal said:
To put it bluntly BRKNRUN, no you can't. Sorry.

(If this is going to start a long physics debate, perhaps we should carry it on in the other thread that PKM refered to in his starting post.)

Jim
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You must be right & I must be wrong... End of Debate...
 
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AYON4GbUD2...mYCH3mXuv3mXWp3mWqx3mPQj4mbfn2mVtU2mWKW4uCMN@


using BHE this is how you line up, but I couldnt guarnetee the same result because of the pivot point and the speed. so to me its easier, but not as predictable.


COMPRENDE' ? or do you just want to start another thread? oh you did... thats about all Im going to reveal. obviously you havent tried any of this, so I suggest grab your cue and hit the practice table. you do have a cue? access to a table? Chalk? or you can buy my ebook, PIN 2 VIN suggested retail price is 149.99, your price today is 129.99!!!!! remove the blinders a focus on what people are telling you. everyone that has replied has tried to help. your just not listening.


PIN 2 VIN!!!!! lol
 
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