Basics of schrimsaw
- Thread starter iusedtoberich
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It seems some misunderstand me. I have always done all my inlays with a small manual inlay machine I developed or before that with my old Gorton Pantograph. What I am saying is that the look of the final product has become more important in the average buyers mind than the method it was done by. I am excluding decals here. Most consumers do still make a distinction there. I have built much fancier cues by manual inlay machine, than some well known cue makers have done with CNC and saw their name sell the simpler CNC inlaid cue for more than mine because of their fame. It has gotten to where the name and look is all MOST buyers look for. This is not true with all as I still get calls for V-points and so on, but over all most are not willing to pay hand made prices any longer when they can get more CNC cue for their money. I see there are still some purests who visit here and I agree with you about "what should be". But "what is", is another matter. I see no difference between CNC inlays and CNC scrimshaw as far as relating to manual scrim and inlays, and I don't think the average consumer and many collectors do either since I saw a $12,000 cnc scrimshawed cue sell. I am only talking about what the market will pay for, not what is best. I think the hand scrimshawed and hand inlaid cues should be worth much more, but over all that is not the case in the buyers minds. What is there here to disagree with? These are just facts about the market and buyers habits and there are always exceptions.
Chris
Chris
Scrwishaw is done as an art.merylane said:
Machining? I don't think people would care if the taper machine used to make a particular cue was cnc or manual.
Inlays? Doing them is arguably an art and a skill but not to the level of scrimshaw imo.
merylane said:
Scrimshaw is an art. You begin a piece it develops as you work. A few more lines here some shading there till you have a finished product that the average person could not reproduce without the talent no matter how long you gave them. With a cnc you 1. You have something that is not unique and can reproduced endlessly like a print of a real painting. 2. Requires no talent. 3. Art has no right or wrong, just what the hand of the artist produces and the amazing skills they have in concept and design and execution unique to them, it is a reflection them and they put their name on it. An artist never does exactly the same thing. Every piece is unique to that moment in time. Inlay is different, it can be done better and cleaner with a machine then by hand, there is a right and wrong. It is accepted there is no art there other then in the original design. I like a nicely designed car but I would not care for one that was hand built, machines do a better job. In art there is no better or worse, just what is in the eye of the beholder and the skills of the artist. Scrimshaw can go from what is almost primitive to some that is picture perfect. Artists have distinctive traits about their work that is unique to them. With a cnc I would just picture the guy scanning in a picture and that's it. No reflection of the artist, nothing just production. I have an original Red Skeleton clown painting my wife bought for $7500.00. You can buy a print of the painting for $100.00. You don't see a difference in value? How about autographs, with cnc who needs the celebrity. Just reproduce the signature endlessly. Hardly the same value. I have a letter from president Johnson with his signature. So do thousands of other people, it is produced by an automatic writing machine. Maybe I should put it on ebay, would I be lying if I claimed it to be a Johnson autograph. Using your logic it would be worth the same as a hand signed autograph.
I have to add this, when it comes to cue inlay, most of these guys have not had an original thought in their lives, all you see is copying.
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cueman said:
Quote
"I see no difference between CNC inlays and CNC scrimshaw as far as relating to manual scrim and inlays, and I don't think the average consumer and many collectors do either since I saw a $12,000 cnc scrimshawed cue sell. I am only talking about what the market will pay for, not what is best."
That is quite an indictment of the intelligence of the cue buying public. A sucker born every minute so to speak. That $12,000. cue can be endlessly reproduced, nothing unique, nothing special. I think the problem is such a gross misconception of actual value. I find this almost sad.
It could be reproduced, but won't be. The guy only builds one of a kind cues and does real clean work. So the scrimshaw though done by CNC was one of a kind not a reprint. Original drawing, one of a kind cue loaded with ivory. So this does make the cue unique and special. I heard someone say the old time cuemakers said Pantograph inlaid cues were no longer hand made. Now the pantograph cues are the hand made ones and the CNC ones are thought of like the pantograph ones were at one time. Where does it all lead? Who knows?macguy said:
Chris
reply
I personally appreciate hand done work on cues. However as anyone who is in this buisness will tell you. Most customers want a cue that costs as little as possible and is fancier than everyone else's in the room. There are a few who appreciate just beautiful wood, but not many that I meet. Now I am only refering to the local players here in denver where the average price for a cue in a local pool hall is $300. Now there are people who appreciate fine cues and will pay for them but they are only 5% of the croud.
I personally do not plan to do cnc scrim. at this time however I would like to see if I can do it on my machine. I would not even attempt to sell one for what a hand carved one would sell for if I made one.
I don't think traditional designed cues ever went anywhere but cnc did get very big very fast, However I think alot of people are coming back to the traditional cues and are willing to pay for hand done work. I personally like this because it shows off the tallent of the builder. Although alot of people on here make it sound like cnc is is just push a button and it's done (which it isn't) It is easy to build a fancy cue with perfect points once it is up and running. Anyway I think most people who know cues know what they are worth. If someone has $12000 to spend on a cnc cue they must think it is worth it. Just my thoughts not trying to start a fight.
I personally appreciate hand done work on cues. However as anyone who is in this buisness will tell you. Most customers want a cue that costs as little as possible and is fancier than everyone else's in the room. There are a few who appreciate just beautiful wood, but not many that I meet. Now I am only refering to the local players here in denver where the average price for a cue in a local pool hall is $300. Now there are people who appreciate fine cues and will pay for them but they are only 5% of the croud.
I personally do not plan to do cnc scrim. at this time however I would like to see if I can do it on my machine. I would not even attempt to sell one for what a hand carved one would sell for if I made one.
I don't think traditional designed cues ever went anywhere but cnc did get very big very fast, However I think alot of people are coming back to the traditional cues and are willing to pay for hand done work. I personally like this because it shows off the tallent of the builder. Although alot of people on here make it sound like cnc is is just push a button and it's done (which it isn't) It is easy to build a fancy cue with perfect points once it is up and running. Anyway I think most people who know cues know what they are worth. If someone has $12000 to spend on a cnc cue they must think it is worth it. Just my thoughts not trying to start a fight.
Pantograph cues are the hand-made ones? Geez, I must be pre-historic. LOL I'm happy with that classification.cueman said:
Where does it all lead? Maybe the use of CNC Laser or machine precision structure with hand-crafted aesthetics. My speculative investment is on the latter.
My 2 cents
There seems to be a debate again and CNC reared it's ugly head again
Nothing bad about CNC but IMO it diminishes such art forms as scrimshaw and hand inlays. True that it takes time to learn it but once you're over that, it's just a push of a button away.
I don't deny that I plan to have one in the future, but it's value for me is machining parts with accuracy and repeatability.
There seems to be a debate again and CNC reared it's ugly head again
Nothing bad about CNC but IMO it diminishes such art forms as scrimshaw and hand inlays. True that it takes time to learn it but once you're over that, it's just a push of a button away.
I don't deny that I plan to have one in the future, but it's value for me is machining parts with accuracy and repeatability.
cueman said:
This is not true in 99% of the cases. CNC is designed for doing "production" work precisely. For a long time it seemed Cogs had maybe 6 or 8 "patterns", now he has a few more, but you see the same ones all the time. This is true with just about any cuemaker using cnc. Like I said, this is where CNC has its advantage. CNC one off's, unless you get paid a ton of money, just wouldn't be worth the investment. Hell look at DP cues, alot of cues have the same patterns, different materials, 25 cues a run. Thats CNC and its the rule, not the exception.
Joe
hadjcues said:There seems to be a debate again and CNC reared it's ugly head again
Nothing bad about CNC but IMO it diminishes such art forms as scrimshaw and hand inlays. True that it takes time to learn it but once you're over that, it's just a push of a button away.
I don't deny that I plan to have one in the future, but it's value for me is machining parts with accuracy and repeatability.
I like Hadj's reply because he is a cuemaker that is calling it what it is. I Also thing CNC is a valid debate, right along with joint types and ferrule materials.
Joe
cueman said:
First I have to say I know nothing about programming cnc so I am just speculating. I would find it hard to believe a cnc could actually do scrimshaw. There is such nuance to the hand of the artist as far as the pressure and sizing to the lines and stippling, shading and the thousands of marks required to produce even the simplest piece of scrimshaw and it develops as the artist works to result in some of the amazing work that is done.
I have a cnc engraved knife in front of me now and it has a mermaid engraved in it by cnc or laser or something. As nice as it may look to the average person it is crap at best if put next to work done by an artist. How could all the tiny variances that exist in a piece of scrimshaw be programmed, and there could be thousands in one small piece. It would seem it would be a major project. I am not talking about a piece of junk engraving like I have in front of me, I refuse to call it scrimshaw, but something that could even begin to rival what an artist can do. And the cnc person would have to do the programming on every single new piece assuming it is to be one of a kind.
It seem like more hassle then just commissioning a real artist to do the work. I would like to see this $12,000. cue. It is probably elaborate, but I would say by real scrimshaw standards it may be a joke once viewed up close and could in no way fool an expert in to thinking it was hand done. I have seen a lot of machine done scrimshaw and at best, it all looks just like what it is. At say a cue show, if the cues were put side by side with work by an artist and machine done work the difference may be laughable thus making this whole discussing almost moot.
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macguy said:
I too, have no cnc experience. The following are just thoughts/questions.
If a cnc is used to do the scratching, doesn't the coloring still have to be done by hand?
When doing scrimshaw, does angle of attack effect the outcome? If so you could make your "Y" axis a "Z", but the tool would also have to be flexible in two axes. Then there is depth of penetration, You are looking at five axes now, and still the thing can't do the coloring/shading.
Tracy
cnc
X = IN & out Z = up & down A = rotation
The machine can run all 4 at the same time if wanted. As far as the angle of the tool in relation to the cue I do not know what affect that has as I cannot do scrimshaw. Hope this helps.
Yes the color would be hand applied. I have my cnc set up as y= L to RRSB-Refugee said:
X = IN & out Z = up & down A = rotation
The machine can run all 4 at the same time if wanted. As far as the angle of the tool in relation to the cue I do not know what affect that has as I cannot do scrimshaw. Hope this helps.
Chris Byrne said:
I was hoping Bandido would address the "angle of attack" issue. I do think I had my axes named wrong in my earlier post. I should have said "make your Y an A?" Isn't A when the cue rotates to achieve a Y in which the tool remains perpendicular to the center line, rather than heading toward the tangent? The Z would take care of depth, but I think the tool would still need two more axes. I saw a 5 axes mill on the "West Coast Choppers" tv show, making an engine block from scratch. It was very cool.
Tracy
Hi Tracy,RSB-Refugee said:
I'm sorry but I am CNC illiterate. All I know about it is what I have read and until I've had hands-on experience, I consider myself unqualified to answer this.
But with regards to scrim by hand, as it should be, the angle of attack would be what will give you your desired effect that is also comfortable with your hand. Remember if you do something uncomfortable this increases the risk of making an uncontrolled gouge. There is no erasing what has been put on.
bandido said:
Edwin,
Do you use a straight edge to scribe the lines? Is there a site on the internet that is a "Scrimshaw 101" of sorts?
Tracy
All my work is freehand and it's a skill I refined when I took Fine Arts in college. There are some scrim sites, as with anything else, that offer to teach for a fee. You are in a good location (USA) to avail of these. We don't have such schools here in the Philippines and that's the reason why I said that my scrimshanding is home-grown. I also believe that I started doing this micro-scrimshanding here and most specially the combination of carving and scrimshanding on cues.RSB-Refugee said: