BCA 8 Ball Rules Question

Who wins, or do they play the game over?

  • The player with solids looses!

    Votes: 8 27.6%

  • The player with stripes looses!

    Votes: 6 20.7%

  • They rack and play the game over!

    Votes: 15 51.7%
  • Total voters
    29
RBLilly

RBLilly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok I know this might stir some controversy, but I honestly can't find the answer!

Ok two players both have two balls left on the table playing BCA 8 ball.

A player steps up and pockets both stripes, and then calls the 8 and pockets the 8 in the pocket called.

After he is finished the other player tells him that he was solids and he just lost the game!

Now I understand that by the rules the eight wasn't really pocketed legally because the player should have been shooting solids. However isn't the other player supposed to call foul after the first wrong shot?

So in this case would it be a loss of game for the person that shot the wrong balls? Or would it be a win for that person that shot the wrong balls?

Or should they just rerack and start the whole thing over?

In my league I ruled that because the foul was not called appropriately that they should rerack and start the game over.
 
I believe the rule is, upon determining that groups have been switched during the course of a game by the referee or either opponent the balls should be re-racked and the original breaker starts the game over. If the opponent were to have called foul after the player shot the first shot at the wrong group, he would have had ball in hand.

I'm making this call based on ACS rule #3.12 so I'm not sure that BCA Pool Leagues play with the same ruling.

Brian in VA
 
How it works in the APA (Copied from manual)

I'm not sure how it works in the BCA, but this is what I found in the APA manual. Hope this helps, I can't imagine BCA being that much different.

Later, Dave

Occasionally it occurs after the break, or anytime during the game for that
matter, that a player mistakenly starts shooting the wrong category of
balls. Although it is sportsmanlike for the sitting player to remind the
shooting player that he is about to foul by shooting the wrong category of
balls, it is not a requirement for him to do so. Once the shooter has hit
the wrong category of balls, the foul has occurred whether the ball is
pocketed or not. If the ball is pocketed, it is permissible, though not
recommended, that the sitting player allow the shooting player to continue
shooting his balls in until he feels inclined to call the foul. The shooting
player can escape penalty by quietly realizing his error and returning
to shoot the correct category of balls and legally contacting one of them
before his opponent calls a foul, or by finishing off the wrong category of
balls and legally contacting the 8-ball prior to his opponent calling a foul.
In other words, the sitting player must call the foul before the shooter
returns to the correct category and legally contacts one, or before the
shooter pockets the remaining balls of the wrong category and legally
contacts the 8-ball. Once a player makes legal contact with the 8-ball,
the player assumes control of that category of wrongly pocketed balls
and can win the game by legally pocketing the 8-ball. Before any foul has
occurred, the shooter also may avoid penalty by asking the sitting player
which category of balls he has. The sitting player must tell him the truth.
 
That was my thoughts on this one exactly! If he called it after the first stripe had been hit then he would have had ball in hand. But it almost seems like a cheap move or a shark move to wait until the guy finishes up the rack to call foul! So that is why I decided it should be a rerack!
 
neither unless he also scratched.

The previous two fouls were not called, so they wouldn't be counted as fouls.

The eight ball was illegally pocketed and would be considered a foul, because he was shooting out of turn after illegally pocketing the balls.

The eight ball would need to be spotted and the other player would get BIH.

Oh wait a minute if an illegally pocketed eight ball is a loss of game in BCA rules then the solids would automatically lose.

I don't remember if it is though?

I know that in BCA rules Eight ball, a scratch on the eight is only a loss of game if the eightball also falls.

That may be because it is an illegally pocketed eightball. If that is the case, then solids would lose.

Jaden
 
bankshot76 said:
I'm not sure how it works in the BCA, but this is what I found in the APA manual. Hope this helps, I can't imagine BCA being that much different.
Later, Dave

Occasionally it occurs after the break, or anytime during the game for that
matter, that a player mistakenly starts shooting the wrong category of
balls. Although it is sportsmanlike for the sitting player to remind the
shooting player that he is about to foul by shooting the wrong category of
balls, it is not a requirement for him to do so. Once the shooter has hit
the wrong category of balls, the foul has occurred whether the ball is
pocketed or not. If the ball is pocketed, it is permissible, though not
recommended, that the sitting player allow the shooting player to continue
shooting his balls in until he feels inclined to call the foul. The shooting
player can escape penalty by quietly realizing his error and returning
to shoot the correct category of balls and legally contacting one of them
before his opponent calls a foul, or by finishing off the wrong category of
balls and legally contacting the 8-ball prior to his opponent calling a foul.
In other words, the sitting player must call the foul before the shooter
returns to the correct category and legally contacts one, or before the
shooter pockets the remaining balls of the wrong category and legally
contacts the 8-ball. Once a player makes legal contact with the 8-ball,
the player assumes control of that category of wrongly pocketed balls
and can win the game by legally pocketing the 8-ball. Before any foul has
occurred, the shooter also may avoid penalty by asking the sitting player
which category of balls he has. The sitting player must tell him the truth.
Click to expand...

There is a lot of differences between APA and BCAPL. BCAPL is call shot and addresses rules in a lot more detail. I have to laugh at the bold above: "quietly" return to the original category of balls. That can REALLY be abused!

Mark Griffin
 
Since the poll is agreeing with me, I have to say the re rack probably is the best solution. However I can see the points that many of you all make out about why someone wins or looses.
 
Mark Griffin said:
There is a lot of differences between APA and BCAPL. BCAPL is call shot and addresses rules in a lot more detail. I have to laugh at the bold above: "quietly" return to the original category of balls. That can REALLY be abused!

Mark Griffin
Click to expand...

I don't think there's much room for abuse if the other player is paying attention. It'd be a pretty risky move!
 
I just tested myself on your well designed quiz and achieved 34 / 35.
I was marked down on question 4 and I don't agree with your answer. Any comments please.
 
Thanks for checking out my quiz, Peter, I'm glad you liked it. You did better than most, congrats.

Rule 3.3d of the 2008 World Standardized Rules (book published by the BCA) says that if a ball is not pocketed on the break, at least 4 object balls must hit one or more rails or the shot is an illegal break.

The words "soft break" do not actually appear in the rules, but to my way of thinking, if you drive 4 object balls to the rails you aren't using a soft break.
 
If BCA uses the official WPA rules, the shooter wins the game. From WPA regulationg (new set of rules):

"10. 8-Ball Addendum
If the groups have been determined and the player mistakenly shoots at and pockets a ball of the opponent?s group, the foul must be called before he takes his next shot. Upon recognition by either player or the referee that the groups have been reversed, the rack will be halted and will be replayed with the original player executing the break shot."

Meaning that the player in his chair has to call the foul on the first shot when his opponents start shooting balls from the wrong group. After calling the foul, the rack will be replayed. This addendum has been added just because it's too easy for the player in his chair to wait until his opponent has cleared the table and just say "hey, you shot all my balls and fouled while pocketing the 8 and lost, thanks".

Please notice that this set of rules has been in use since the beginning of 2008 so not all players know these. If BCA has its own set of rules, differing from WPA rules, then I don't know how the situation goes. But this is the WPA ruling on this case.

Greets,
Mikko
official EPBF referee
 
Grampa000 said:
Although this particular question isn't addressed, you guys might like to test yourselves on my BCA 8 Ball rules quiz. It's on my blog at:

http://www.poolstudent.com/blog/quizzes/bca-8-ball-rules-quiz/

Feel free to look around and let me know what you think. I'm happy to receive constructive feedback positive or negative.
Click to expand...
i thihk it is a great idea!

LJ Moss
BCAPL league operator of fl
BCA National referee
Diamond table dealer of fl
 
No Clue

Jaden said:
The previous two fouls were not called, so they wouldn't be counted as fouls.

The eight ball was illegally pocketed and would be considered a foul, because he was shooting out of turn after illegally pocketing the balls.

The eight ball would need to be spotted and the other player would get BIH.

Oh wait a minute if an illegally pocketed eight ball is a loss of game in BCA rules then the solids would automatically lose.

I don't remember if it is though?

I know that in BCA rules Eight ball, a scratch on the eight is only a loss of game if the eightball also falls.

That may be because it is an illegally pocketed eightball. If that is the case, then solids would lose.

Jaden
Click to expand...

I have no clue what you are trying to say, but most of your assumptions are wrong
 
ljmoss said:
LJ Moss
BCAPL league operator of fl
BCA National referee
Diamond table dealer of fl
Click to expand...

Hey LJ or someone else at the BCA, do they automatically use WPA rules at the BCA or does the BCA confirm the new set of WPA rules separately for their own use at a certain time ? Just curious because the EPBF uses the WPA rules automatically...
 
BCA Ruling

The player who originally had stripes loses as he did not call the foul after the first stripe was pocketed. By allowing the player to shoot the second stripe, he allowed the player to take over that group of balls.

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

If the groups have been determined and the player mistakenly shoots at and pockets a ball of the group, the opponent must call a foul on him before he takes his next shot. If he fails to do so, the player automatically takes over the group of balls (solids or stripes) at which he has been shooting during this inning.
 
Neil said:
3. Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by the player(s) or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups for any reason and a foul was not called in a timely manner, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again.
Click to expand...


Firecracker said:
If the groups have been determined and the player mistakenly shoots at and pockets a ball of the group, the opponent must call a foul on him before he takes his next shot. If he fails to do so, the player automatically takes over the group of balls (solids or stripes) at which he has been shooting during this inning.
Click to expand...

These must be out of two different BCA rule books, as they are completely different.

I believe in the BCA league I played in last summer, we went by the one quoted by Firecracker: You call the foul right away else the opponent takes over what were your object balls.
Fortunately, it never came up.
 
Firecracker said:
The player who originally had stripes loses as he did not call the foul after the first stripe was pocketed. By allowing the player to shoot the second stripe, he allowed the player to take over that group of balls.

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

If the groups have been determined and the player mistakenly shoots at and pockets a ball of the group, the opponent must call a foul on him before he takes his next shot. If he fails to do so, the player automatically takes over the group of balls (solids or stripes) at which he has been shooting during this inning.
Click to expand...

Same idea with the WPA but different wording.
 
Sorry, Not Right

Firecracker said:
The player who originally had stripes loses as he did not call the foul after the first stripe was pocketed. By allowing the player to shoot the second stripe, he allowed the player to take over that group of balls.

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

If the groups have been determined and the player mistakenly shoots at and pockets a ball of the group, the opponent must call a foul on him before he takes his next shot. If he fails to do so, the player automatically takes over the group of balls (solids or stripes) at which he has been shooting during this inning.
Click to expand...

Sorry Tara, the 4 series is for 10 BALL and there is no 4.10

The original question was for BCA and in that case they would probably be playing under the BCAPL rules

The rules from a few years would allow for a player to announce it as soon as it was discovered, which led to people waiting until the player got ready to shoot the 8 and then calling it.

That rule was modified to the one you are referencing, and now the BCAPL modified to something better as follows:



2.6 Establishing Groups
1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group.

2. If all of either group of balls are pocketed on the break or illegally pocketed before the groups are established, either player may legally shoot the 8-ball during their inning. If the 8-ball is legally pocketed on such a shot, the game is won.

3. Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by the player(s) or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups for any reason and a foul was not called in a timely manner, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again.
 
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