# BCA Ball In Hand Question

#### Mickey Qualls

##### You study the watch......
Silver Member
This came up in our in house league last night. I was not the one playing.

Player A has broken and claimed a group, made a few balls, then scratches.

Player B has ball in hand anywhere.

Player B, while placing the cue ball, moves an object ball.

Player A instructs Player B to move it back to where it was (which they agree on).

Player B makes a couple of shots and misses, Player A gets out from there.

The discussion with my teammate (B) was as follows:

Me: "You know that was ball in hand, right ?"
B: "Yeah, I'm working on better shot selection."
Me: "No, I meant when you moved your 6 ball. That was ball in hand back to him."
B: " Nah, the rule is that he (A) has the option of moving it back or leaving it where it was."
Me: "Yes, but not when it's ball in hand."

We discussed it a little more, and another player on my team remembers something in the rules regarding the scenario.

None of us have been able to find reference to it in the rule book.

So, what is the rule regarding moving a ball while it's ball in hand ?

#### pocket

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This came up in our in house league last night. I was not the one playing.

Player A has broken and claimed a group, made a few balls, then scratches.

Player B has ball in hand anywhere.

Player B, while placing the cue ball, moves an object ball.

Player A instructs Player B to move it back to where it was (which they agree on).

Player B makes a couple of shots and misses, Player A gets out from there.

The discussion with my teammate (B) was as follows:

Me: "You know that was ball in hand, right ?"
B: "Yeah, I'm working on better shot selection."
Me: "No, I meant when you moved your 6 ball. That was ball in hand back to him."
B: " Nah, the rule is that he (A) has the option of moving it back or leaving it where it was."
Me: "Yes, but not when it's ball in hand."

We discussed it a little more, and another player on my team remembers something in the rules regarding the scenario.

None of us have been able to find reference to it in the rule book.

So, what is the rule regarding moving a ball while it's ball in hand ?

He fouled because it was a cue ball foul-

#### fastone371

##### Certifiable
Silver Member
BCA is cue ball fouls only. I do not consider this a cue ball foul because shooter was allowed to touch cue ball because of the opponents foul. Shooter did exactly what he was supposed to do, informed opponent he bumped 6 ball, asked what opponent wanted done with 6, agreed on placement of 6 ball, end of story. Unless of course shooter moved or bumped another ball during the same shot.

#### Jeff G. Martin

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Assuming you're talking about BCAPL rules, it is a foul if he disturbed an object ball with the cue ball or hand/wrist holding the cue ball with no restoration option for the incoming player. I would do a search for "placement" in the rules.

#### Banks

##### Banned
BCA is cue ball fouls only. I do not consider this a cue ball foul because shooter was allowed to touch cue ball because of the opponents foul. Shooter did exactly what he was supposed to do, informed opponent he bumped 6 ball, asked what opponent wanted done with 6, agreed on placement of 6 ball, end of story. Unless of course shooter moved or bumped another ball during the same shot.

I wish it was. A year or two back, in a tournament i grazed a couple while settling into my shot and my opponent called a foul. If you move more than one, it's bih. But, i think it's like apa, where your hand/arm is an extension of the cb while holding it.

#### zencues.com

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's a foul

http://wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play

6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

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#### Scottyboy716

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
1-38 Ball in Hand Placement
1. When you have ball in hand, you may use your hand or any part of your cue, including the tip, to position the cue ball. If you use your cue to place the cue ball, any action that would be a legal stroke will be considered a shot, and must meet the requirements of a legal shot or it is a foul. (AR p. 81, 96)

2. Once you have picked up or moved the cue ball to take ball in hand, it remains in hand until it is contacted by the tip on your next stroke. You may place the cue ball, pick it up or move it again, and replace it successive times until you take that stroke. (AR p. 96)

3. Immediately after a foul, when you are picking up or moving the cue ball the first time to take ball in hand (as opposed to placing the cue ball or picking it up again for successive placements before the next shot), the provisions of Rule 1-33-1 apply to touching or disturbing a single object ball with the cue ball or your hand. You may request that a referee pick the cue ball up for you immediately after a foul. (AR p. 96)
Head String Example: Ball is in the kitchen.

Kitchen Position of ball is at its base.
Diagram 7 – Position of Ball

4. When placing or moving the cue ball, it is a foul if you touch or disturb any object ball with the cue ball or your hand that holds the cue ball. Your "hand" is defined as including the wrist up to a point where a wristwatch would normally be worn. Your opponent has no restoration option.

http://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html

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#### cardiac kid

##### Super Senior Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Player B, while placing the cue ball, moves an object ball.

Mickey,

Did the cue ball and or the hand holding the cue ball move the object ball? If either of those scenarios are correct, it's ball in hand. The cue ball moved an object ball period. Foul!

Lyn

#### Mickey Qualls

##### You study the watch......
Silver Member
Mickey,

Did the cue ball and or the hand holding the cue ball move the object ball? If either of those scenarios are correct, it's ball in hand. The cue ball moved an object ball period. Foul!

Lyn

In my scenario, the object ball was moved by the same hand as the cue ball. Player B was placing the cue ball and the palm of his hand brushed another one of his object balls (unintentionally, but also gave that moved ball a pocket to now go into).

Aside from this, no balls were clustered, and Player A at that point could have taken ball in hand (leaving the moved ball where it was), and still likely gotten out (he had two balls and the eight left).

But your question begs another question (Player B is right handed)...

What if Player B moved an object ball with his "cue" hand ? An example might be if Player B places the cue ball with his left hand, without disturbing any balls.
Then, while doing warm-up strokes, brushes an object ball with his right hand (the hand gripping the wrap/butt cap) ?

Is the ruling the same ?

#### cardiac kid

##### Super Senior Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
But your question begs another question (Player B is right handed)...

What if Player B moved an object ball with his "cue" hand ? An example might be if Player B places the cue ball with his left hand, without disturbing any balls.
Then, while doing warm-up strokes, brushes an object ball with his right hand (the hand gripping the wrap/butt cap) ?

Is the ruling the same ?

No. BCAPL rules consider only cue ball fouls. At least when the cue ball is not in motion. Once in motion, the path of the cue ball becomes involved in any possible fouls. One way a "butt" hand foul might occur is if the moved object ball moves into the path of the cue ball. Then a foul might be called. Especially if the cue ball strikes the moved object ball and impedes its motion. Another might be if the "butt" hand moves more than one ball. Then it becomes a judgement call without a referee.

I really like the rule the Joss Northeast Tour uses. Move a ball BEFORE you shoot and your opponent may replace the ball to its original position. Except if it is the cue ball and it touches an object ball. Move a ball while you shoot and its a foul. The Gold Crown Billiards events I play in consider any ball moved before or after to be a foul. Pretty extreme but it ends all the BS. If you are playing BCAPL, contact Bill Stock. He's the man when it comes to the rules.

Lyn

#### Skippy27

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This came up in our in house league last night. I was not the one playing.

Player A has broken and claimed a group, made a few balls, then scratches.

Player B has ball in hand anywhere.

Player B, while placing the cue ball, moves an object ball.

Player A instructs Player B to move it back to where it was (which they agree on).

Player B makes a couple of shots and misses, Player A gets out from there.

The discussion with my teammate (B) was as follows:

Me: "You know that was ball in hand, right ?"
B: "Yeah, I'm working on better shot selection."
Me: "No, I meant when you moved your 6 ball. That was ball in hand back to him."
B: " Nah, the rule is that he (A) has the option of moving it back or leaving it where it was."
Me: "Yes, but not when it's ball in hand."

We discussed it a little more, and another player on my team remembers something in the rules regarding the scenario.

None of us have been able to find reference to it in the rule book.

So, what is the rule regarding moving a ball while it's ball in hand ?
If he accidentally moved a ball with the cue ball or the hand he is placing the cue ball with then it is indeed a BIH foul on his part. Your hand is considered an extension of the cue ball while you are placing it.

In BCA even touching another ball is a foul so the BIH situation is irrelevant.

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#### Skippy27

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Aside from this, no balls were clustered, and Player A at that point could have taken ball in hand (leaving the moved ball where it was), and still likely gotten out (he had two balls and the eight left).

But your question begs another question (Player B is right handed)...

What if Player B moved an object ball with his "cue" hand ? An example might be if Player B places the cue ball with his left hand, without disturbing any balls.
Then, while doing warm-up strokes, brushes an object ball with his right hand (the hand gripping the wrap/butt cap) ?

Is the ruling the same ?

Touching another ball is a foul regardless in BCA.

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#### NINEBALLART

##### NINEBALLART
Gold Member
Silver Member
Page 35 of CSI, BCA rules.....

7. It is a foul if;

a. you disturb the cue ball

b. you disturb more than one object ball

c. a disturbed ball contacts any other ball

d. you disturb a ball that is in motion

Moving a single object ball is not a foul....That is on another page in the rule book ,RULE 1-33, which states opponent has option of moving it back or not...But if more than one object ball is moved or if the object ball moved contacts another ball, then it's a foul.....

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#### spartan

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Geez
If OP's scenario is not a foul, I would love to play such rules. I would "deliberately" move other balls in my favor while shooting LOLOL

Should be "all balls foul"
Anything less is a joke. I didn't understand why many here were knocking BCA. Now I know

:grin-square:

#### Jeff G. Martin

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Page 35 of CSI, BCA rules.....

7. It is a foul if;

a. you disturb the cue ball

b. you disturb more than one object ball

c. a disturbed ball contacts any other ball

d. you disturb a ball that is in motion

Moving a single object ball is not a foul....That is on another page in the rule book ,RULE 1-33, which states opponent has option of moving it back or not...But if more than one object ball is moved or if the object ball moved contacts another ball, then it's a foul.....

You're in the wrong section. Go to 1-38. Scottyboy posted it above.

#### Blue Hog ridr

##### World Famous Fisherman.
Silver Member
Off the top of my Pointed Head, I agree that is a Foul, considering that he moved a ball with the hand that was holding the Cue Ball. It would be considered that was your shot. Once you set the cue ball in place, nothing but the tip of your cue can touch it. If you were doing a Johnny Archer, get up off your shot, pick some lint, and bump the cue ball with your hand, I would call Foul on you.

Keep in mind, not that you guys don't know this anyway, that if your wrist watch, something falls out of your shirt pocket, or your hair touches the cue ball, that is also considered a Foul.

We have a girl that plays league. She is a serious Hair Head. Must take her an entire day
to wash it. I have never seen anything like it in my life.

I have seen her go down for a shot, her hair falling all over the table and other balls. In brushing her hair out of the way, she has moved multiple balls around the table.

I would almost suspect at times that this is done on purpose. Otherwise, why wouldn't she keep her hair back somehow when she comes out to play. Seriously annoying to watch tho. It is not like she is a Rookie player. Been at it for years.

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