BCA needs to address definition of legal push shot
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Cuebacca said:If there's ever a Jacksonville Part II, maybe this shot should be tested as an extreme case of the frozen combo contact time:
I do like the simplicity of being able to shoot through a frozen ball, but I'm afraid that the above test just might hurt the cause a little bit.
LOL. How long did it take you to line all those balls up so straight?
I wonder what would happen with this shot. I think the problem would be double hitting the CB because it would move too slowly to get out of the way.
But I don't think this would reasonably hurt the case for legally shooting through a frozen combo because any more than one or two OBs frozen in a straight line with the CB is just too unlikely to matter, and a double hit would probably be easy to see.
pj
chgo
I couldn't find the "technical" section on AZbtv.com. However, I'm satisfied that shooting into a ball frozen to the cueball does not result in a double hit. I use the shot advantageously when it presents itself.Bob Jewett said:
What's interesting, though, is the old trick shot with two balls frozen perpendicular to the rail a few inches from the hole. The shooter would literally push into the OB with the CB, causing the OB to move laterally into the pocket. As I recall the cuetip stays on the CB for an extended time. So I'm wondering if that would be a legal shot? I suppose that would be a special "trap shot" rule, since the CB may actually smear across the CB-- in effect causing a double hit.
Doc
gulfportdoc said:
According to the "rules" you can do just about anything with a frozen ball, even eat it if you like.
gulfportdoc said:
That is the classic example of a "push shot". In general there is no double hit, so that's the reason for having the additional rule disallowing push shots.
Another thing that can be done using prolonged contact of the tip on the cue ball: Point the cue tip straight down on the CB (like masse position), and carefully rest the tip on top of the CB (making sure that there is constant contact and therefore only one "hit"). Now it is possible to "walk" the CB around the table by twisting the butt and angling it slightly. Think of all the things you could do if that were allowed. I've seen Bob Jewett control the CB this way for several minutes keeping constant contact and never "double hitting" the CB.
Mark
Never Mind.
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Seems to me that reading the rules before criticizing them so much would add to your credibility on the topic. Who knows, you might even like them if you got acquainted.
It's clearly stated in the rules that this shot is a push shot foul because the tip stays in contact with the CB for an extended period of time. Being able to do things like that is a big reason push shots are fouls. You can't do anything like that shooting through a frozen combo with a normal stroke, as the rules require.
pj
chgo
Thanks for the opportunity...
to quote from the unfinished WONDERBOYS II...extremely shameless plug...especially for something you won't see in the theaters in your lifetime...well maybe...
"His cue ball was almost hugging the side rail, and the six ball almost kissing the cue ball, but lined up straight to the corner pocket across the table. Lombard jacks up the butt of his cue and slams the cue ball so that it knocks the six ball to the corner pocket, and stops on a dime about a foot and a half away. Not a cannon, but at least a bazooka."
This is a shot that I played in the finals of a tournament at hill-hill. My opponent...jumped out of his chair and called foul. I was houseman at the time...and the owner, me, and my opponent had a quiet discussion...and the owner said that he thought the shot was legal but that he would rule against me because I was his houseman and it would look bad if he ruled in my favor...and awarded me the same amount of money as first place...and then announced to the crowd that it was a foul and that my opponent had just won the tournament...well he actually had to sink the 9-ball that was hanging in the side pocket.
Thanks again
Mike
to quote from the unfinished WONDERBOYS II...extremely shameless plug...especially for something you won't see in the theaters in your lifetime...well maybe...
"His cue ball was almost hugging the side rail, and the six ball almost kissing the cue ball, but lined up straight to the corner pocket across the table. Lombard jacks up the butt of his cue and slams the cue ball so that it knocks the six ball to the corner pocket, and stops on a dime about a foot and a half away. Not a cannon, but at least a bazooka."
This is a shot that I played in the finals of a tournament at hill-hill. My opponent...jumped out of his chair and called foul. I was houseman at the time...and the owner, me, and my opponent had a quiet discussion...and the owner said that he thought the shot was legal but that he would rule against me because I was his houseman and it would look bad if he ruled in my favor...and awarded me the same amount of money as first place...and then announced to the crowd that it was a foul and that my opponent had just won the tournament...well he actually had to sink the 9-ball that was hanging in the side pocket.
Thanks again
Mike
on an accustat tape Ray martin played that same shot, but his cue ball traveled the length of the table before backspin took effect and the cb stopped. The commentator Freddy Bentivegna said "I hope they (BCA ?)dont't take that shot away because I've learned how to control it. It's a tasty shot".
His cb and ob were frozen or nearly so, and he jacked up 45 degrees.
Referee allowed it.
If there's wide disagreement on this shot, the BCA should adopt the snooker ruling.
His cb and ob were frozen or nearly so, and he jacked up 45 degrees.
Referee allowed it.
If there's wide disagreement on this shot, the BCA should adopt the snooker ruling.
I played the same shot yesterday with the same result and called a foul on myself. My opponent wouldn't have called it - I had to explain to him why it was a foul.
The reason it's a foul is that if you hit a straight in shot with backspin and don't foul it the cue ball won't follow forward before the backspin "catches". When it follows forward like that it's a sure sign that you've double hit the CB.
A good rule of thumb is that if the CB does something it wouldn't do shooting from a greater distance away, then you've fouled it somehow.
You don't really need another rule for this; you just need to know how to read the CB's action. In fact, I seem to recall seeing guidance in the rules or regulations about this; something to the effect that "if the CB travels a half ball or more through the OB" then a double hit is assumed.
pj
chgo
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Hey don't make me quote from WONDERBOYS II again lol...
In the movie...er, book...Lombard made the shot...he was playing Jimmy Caras...spaces added for readability...
"Somebody in the stands yelled, ?Foul!? and Caras got out of his chair and looked around. Lombard stopped play and looked at Caras. He asked,
?That?s a legal shot, right, Jimmy??
Caras looked a little embarrassed to be questioning it.
?You know, in all my years in this game, I never did know the difference between a push-cue and a double-hit. Sometimes it?s legal, sometimes it?s not.?
By this time, the tournament director was over, asking for particulars. He asked Lombard point blank if he fouled.
?Absolutely not. I played a stop shot with a fair stroke. That?s all I need to do, use a fair stroke.?
He was referring to one clause in the rules, but a fan yelled out a different clause on double-hits, and the director then asked Caras if it was a foul.
?I honestly don?t know. I?m sorry I ever brought it up.?
Caras didn?t bring it up, and I liked how he took responsibility, even though he never would have said anything if that fan hadn?t started it, very sportsmanlike. The director ruled against Lombard, who accepted the loss without argument."
In the movie...er, book...Lombard made the shot...he was playing Jimmy Caras...spaces added for readability...
"Somebody in the stands yelled, ?Foul!? and Caras got out of his chair and looked around. Lombard stopped play and looked at Caras. He asked,
?That?s a legal shot, right, Jimmy??
Caras looked a little embarrassed to be questioning it.
?You know, in all my years in this game, I never did know the difference between a push-cue and a double-hit. Sometimes it?s legal, sometimes it?s not.?
By this time, the tournament director was over, asking for particulars. He asked Lombard point blank if he fouled.
?Absolutely not. I played a stop shot with a fair stroke. That?s all I need to do, use a fair stroke.?
He was referring to one clause in the rules, but a fan yelled out a different clause on double-hits, and the director then asked Caras if it was a foul.
?I honestly don?t know. I?m sorry I ever brought it up.?
Caras didn?t bring it up, and I liked how he took responsibility, even though he never would have said anything if that fan hadn?t started it, very sportsmanlike. The director ruled against Lombard, who accepted the loss without argument."
So what's with all those question marks...
In my quote above...most of the question marks are really quotation marks...MM
In my quote above...most of the question marks are really quotation marks...MM
Pardon my ignorance, Mike, but is that your book? Sounds great.
pj
chgo
I bet it's because of the software you're using, but I don't know the fix. Maybe you need to set it to HTML? (<- that's a real question mark)
pj
chgo
Thanks Patrick
Yes that is from a book that I have yet to finish...it's a sequel to WONDERBOYS that was run in chapter form on this website...a book which by the way is an astounding 10 years old in December...yikes...
Thanks for your interest...and if you pm me with a mailing address I'll send out a copy of the first book. A book that may not be great but will surely gain in value if I die a horrible death...did I really just say that...
That offer goes to the first 10 interested players/readers who respond...
Mike
Yes that is from a book that I have yet to finish...it's a sequel to WONDERBOYS that was run in chapter form on this website...a book which by the way is an astounding 10 years old in December...yikes...
Thanks for your interest...and if you pm me with a mailing address I'll send out a copy of the first book. A book that may not be great but will surely gain in value if I die a horrible death...did I really just say that...
That offer goes to the first 10 interested players/readers who respond...
Mike
This is the sort of extended contact time that the push shot rule is intended to prevent.gulfportdoc said:
When the page starts up for me, I see nine thumbnails of various sorts of videos, including "One Pocket" and "Artistic Pool." There is a "move right" arrow below those thumbnails. If you click on the "move right" arrow, you will see some more topics including "Technical."gulfportdoc said:
Patrick Johnson said:
LOL. It wasn't too bad. I just feel sorry for anyone who tries to set it up perfectly on a real pool table.
That was what my gut told me too. Although I couldn't really picture the details of how the cue ball would leave the tip for a very short and very straight stroke. It seems like under ideal conditions, it should just push the whole train along a straight line. I guess the key word though is "ideal".
Good point! I'd still get a kick out of seeing it though. My best hope of getting close is probably watching it on a future release of a pool simulator. LOL.
jay helfert said:This shot and the one where the cue ball and object ball are very close together has plagued tournament officials for decades. I do not like what the BCA has done in their current rules, allowing a player to shoot directly through two frozen balls. This is contrary to everything I learned in well over 30 years of playing pool and officiating. Plain and simple, the above is a bad shot and should be ruled as such.
The BCA rules committee took the easy way out on this one and did their best to make it easier for less skilled officials to make a call. JMHO
My point of view is that if the balls are frozen or near frozen, extreme care must be used in executing any shot here. I would NOT allow "pushing" or shooting directly through the balls. Either an elevated cue stroke must be used or you must shoot at an angle into the object ball.
Of course those are "Jay's" rules now. And the ones we used for about 50 years before the BCA mucked it up!
Why even bother about extreme care which is also subjective? Just make the rule so when the referee or the players agreed the cb and ob are frozen that the shooting player has to shoot away from the ob and use all their banking skill to hit it back.