BCA Open... what happened to the "Pearl"?

with all due respect...

JAM said:
Maybe Earl should have spit on the bad-rolling Connelly table. Now there's a thought! Only problem is Earl leaves Las Vegas with exactly what he came with, empty pockets and another happy memory on the tournament trail!

JAM
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You know JAM, I think you are one of the most articulate inside pool poster to come down the shute in all the time I have been posting/lurking, that being since 2001 or there about. I won't throw stones at Earl just like I won't throw stones at your boy Keith. I can kind of appreciate your dilemma/quandary that being your the keeper of Keith...LOL It must be love! Now, don't get me wrong. I am not being a smart ass. I have total respect for any pool player following his/her passion for the game, sacrificing all for the need to play and forgoing the more traditional path to the American dream, working for some facist capitalist unhuman glutanist pig.....Opps...got off on a tangent there...sorry......
More to the point, I think you are on the money about the state of the industry and the hopes for its future; pretty dismal stuff, I agree. Reading between the lines of your posts. Do I detect a chink in your armor? Are you burning out? Are you giving up the good fight? Is it futile chasing the dream?
 
cheesemouse said:
You know JAM, I think you are one of the most articulate inside pool poster to come down the shute in all the time I have been posting/lurking, that being since 2001 or there about. I won't throw stones at Earl just like I won't throw stones at your boy Keith. I can kind of appreciate your dilemma/quandary that being your the keeper of Keith...LOL It must be love! Now, don't get me wrong. I am not being a smart ass. I have total respect for any pool player following his/her passion for the game, sacrificing all for the need to play and forgoing the more traditional path to the American dream, working for some facist capitalist unhuman glutanist pig.....Opps...got off on a tangent there...sorry......
More to the point, I think you are on the money about the state of the industry and the hopes for its future; pretty dismal stuff, I agree. Reading between the lines of your posts. Do I detect a chink in your armor? Are you burning out? Are you giving up the good fight? Is it futile chasing the dream?
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LOL! Cheesemouse, I came to the realization a long time ago that a pool player earning a living competing solely in tournaments alone is, most definitely, futile. Said another way, it is financial suicide.

With the low payouts and high expenses relating to competition, one must pick and choose how to get the best bang for one's buck.

You see, Cheesemouse, Keith only wants to play pool. He has experienced a lot of the same political stop signs from days gone by. He actually loves the game -- all pocket billiard games -- and has a deep passion for the sport. He thinks he's still got a little fire left in the jug and hasn't gone out to pasture quite yet. :p

Juggling my work schedule and his pool tournament attendance is logistically difficult, but we both continue to give and take. I think pool popularity is on the rise. It would be splendid if competing organization entities would work together for one common goal, which is the betterment of the sport, but to date, it just hasn't happened.

JAM
 
chefjeff said:
...I'll ask you the same question as I did AceHigh: Why is there always a paycheck for ball players?

I'll attempt an answer: Because people come and spend money to watch the players...(and here's the important part in this thread) to watch the players...PLAY.
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ChefJeff, comparing pool to baseball is truly like apples and oranges, don't you think?

A baseball player joins an organization and signs a contract. In return -- key words here -- IN RETURN, he is given a salary, insurance benefits, and financial security. The better he plays, the higher his contract will be when it comes around next time, which provides a very good incentive to be all that you can be.

A pool player joins an organization and signs a contract. IN RETURN, he only has to pay a paltry 100 bucks yearly to be labeled "professional." The contract benefits the organization, more so than the pool player. There is no financial stability, no benefits, and no guarantee you're going to get paid in tournament play, as evidenced by Danny Harriman. It's a win-win for the organization, but what is the organization providing to the pool player in return? Nobody knows who's on first and who's on second as it pertains to the ranking system, and to disseminate a flier once a year about an event in New York City that costs about $2,000 to attend doesn't seem to cut the mustard (IMO).

It's ass-backwards when it comes to pool. The organizations seem to be doing everything to stuff the pockets of the administration members, to include getting a free ride to all tournaments on the corporate credit card, but the pool player member can just fend for themselves! JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
 
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JAM said:
ChefJeff, comparing pool to baseball is truly like apples and oranges, don't you think?

(snip)
JAM
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More like apples (baseball) to kiwi (pool). :cool:

My point that I'm trying to convey is that baseball gives entertainment value to spectators and that's where the money comes from. We spent $40 on baseball, which we really don't like that well, instead of spending $40 at the pool hall watching a sport I do love. Does pool even attempt to offer me this option? I don't think so.

Go to any little park in America and there's a ball diamond. Guess what is behind EVERY backstop? Bleachers!!!

Go into any pool hall in America and there's some pool tables. Guess what is NOT behind every table. Bleachers!!! The players are lucky to be able to sit, let alone any spectators.

Before any money flows to pool players, the spectators must FIRST be accommodated. There must be places to watch, not just play. And there must be someone worth watching. Keith, for example, is fun to watch....but how?

The current situation as I understand it, is that all the money flows from the players, through the suits, and then some of it drips back onto some players. This is destined to be a losing deal in the long run....for everyone.

For the record, YOUR opinion is worth much as you're right in the middle of it all. It is not "just" your opinion; it is an objective, informed vision of the problems with "pro" pool. I'm hoping to add to the solutions, in this case, through you and I look forward to always hearing your viewpoint on the pool business. Keep up the good work.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
More like apples (baseball) to kiwi (pool). :cool: ...For the record, YOUR opinion is worth much as you're right in the middle of it all. It is not "just" your opinion; it is an objective, informed vision of the problems with "pro" pool. I'm hoping to add to the solutions....
Click to expand...

Reminds me of a thread not so long ago about the opinions of the pool room owner and the tour director! :p

Ultimately, an infusion of money into the sport needs to come from the spectators. That is a given!

In order to attract money-spending spectators, fans, and pool enthusiasts, as it relates to PROFESSIONAL pool, there needs to be a product with NAME-BRAND recognition.

Because of the exhorbitant expenses associated with attending tournaments for the pool player, due to entry fees, lodging, travel, food, and making ends meet in the year 2005 -- and let's not forget about keeping a roof over one's head when not on the tournament trail -- the payouts are not commensurate with what a player has to invest in the sport; thus, many championship-level players leave the sport for good. Dwindling, dwindling, dwindling!

Organizational structures could assist in the dilemma relating to the extinction of professional pool players. To date, some entities are designed to benefit the administration and NOT the member players. Because there is NOT a level playing field, there is very little room for an aspiring player to catch up with the pack, ESPECIALLY since the sanctioned BCA Open, which we all know is an invitational, is limited to only 32 American players

Without players, there is no product to sell. Without a product to sell, there are no prospective sponsors on the horizon. Without sorely needed sponsors, those from OUTSIDE of the pool industry, there is no platform for the players to compete. Without the platform, there are no paying spectators. No need for bleachers; the tail is wagging the dog. :p

So, ChefJeff, you and I may decide our C-note is better spent seeing a baseball game. We are both on the outside looking in. The player and specator cannot fix this problem.

JAM
 
RichardCranium said:
Ban Poker from anywhere except Vegas and Atlantic City......and Pool Rooms will prosper again...."Action" will return to pool rooms...and Pro Players will re-emerge....
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The reason poker is attractive to some pool players is money. The cash payouts are much GREATER than pool.

Another characteristic about poker which has made it so popular today is that the layperson can relate to the players. Somehow or another, poker on TV has a personality. These are real human beings playing poker and not just emotionless robots going through the motions.

Pool can attract new interest, but what can the sport offer to a layperson who doesn't understand one iota about the game? Many times, when they tune in on the TV, pool is completely unintelligible to them, and they keep on surfing until they find something they understand, maybe that hot dog-eating contest on ESPN2.

When the powers-that-be figure out how to display pool in a manner which will bring in new interest, prospective sponsors will see a potential for a large investment. The payouts will be higher, and the aspiring pool player will strive to improve their game, compete on the tournament trail, and get them some. :p

JAM
 
racer rx said:
My highlights were:

Seeing Thorston play solid.
Click to expand...

Played Thorsten a short race, I kept jumping up, he kept running out... solid... His eyes lit up when I asked him his best straight pool run... 404... he loves that game and dropping balls in the subway. 9-ball may be where the pro game fame and money, such as it is now, but he likes shooting and long runs, not luck of the break. At his young age, he does not yet appreciate one-pocket, banks, subtlety and safety play. This horse wants open country and a long-distance run.

Hope he did good, he is a thoroughbred pool player.
 
racer rx said:
Anyone know the scoop on what happened to Earl in Vegas? Did he get the boot?
Click to expand...

I've met Earl pre-competition once before the 2001 Tokyo 9-ball event, and posted my impressions. Recap: supremo is feeling the heat from the talented young bucks, appreciates seeding for the established names and levelling the playing field is no longer in his interest... funny enough like Republicans in the U.S. House and Senate, but I digress grieviously.

Earl, I think, has been there done that so many times he must be sick of waking up knowing he has to prove it again this Sunday or some young turk is going to walk away crowing about how he whupped the incredible inhuman best Earl !once!... Earl really can't win at this point, either it was expected, or he was great and now the young guns with alternate break are either "better" than him, or he is "over the hill" neither of which are very attractive propositions for a guy I see little evidence pointing towards many more moves left in his billiards game plan... he rode the rocket to fame, and now it is sputtering a bit methinks. Somewhat reminiscent of Mosconi, who didn't have much nice to say about pool in general or other pool players once his moments in the sun were more likely sunset.

I think Earl is understandably feeling a touch desperate, the world is no longer at his command as it once was from 1982-? but I am not his shrink, could be way wrong, and hope for all his fame and skill he finds some happiness somehow for life because the tournament trail was always rough and still is today, and it is not getting any easier as one gets older.

My 2cents.
 
It seems this thread is drifting in the "whats wrong with pool today" direction and "gambling, good or bad for pool?". And simple but perhaps misplaced green envy of "who is really making the money in pool today 'cause it sure isn't me!" Endlessly debatable points.

I for one would appreciate Mike Shamos' historical opinion on these ideas. I am told pool was once a great spectator sport in the US back in the '20s, it still is in England with snooker and huge $$ for the players, and I think Barry Hearn is doing well with his World Pool Masters tournament in Europe, with TV$$.

Hustling stories are funny, in the "if it's not a good time, its' a good story" sense 30 years after the fact, like LilJohn and his 17,000 under the table, and who claims to have got the cheese after the statute of limitations run out, or great tales of escaping through bathroom windows after air balls are fired, dumping, "business" all amusing stuff, if you aren't on the losing end of it. Yuck yuck yuck, not. I also include the "great" movies "The Hustler" and "Color of Money" sequel as cautionary tales.

Of course, it only takes a few 1917 Red Sox game fixing matches, a few soccer goalie's and refs playing footsy with gamblers to fix matches, current steriod abuses to win, or great old poker cheats to ruin the gambling action... it is only a couple of intrepid investigative reporters away from finding the fixed roulette wheel to ruining the current popularity of casino "action".

"Action" for action's sake doesn't appeal, might as well be dice or horses or poker.

Is pool different? Yes. It is a game of skill, can be played for pleasure only, and takes immense but subtle skill. I have been playing 30+ years, and will never be quite pro caliber. Love the game, enjoy the game, the game will be here 500 years from now, it is that good. Hopefully it will be in a better state than now.
 
Kevin said:
It seems this thread is drifting in the "whats wrong with pool today" direction and "gambling, good or bad for pool?". And simple but perhaps misplaced green envy of "who is really making the money in pool today 'cause it sure isn't me!" Endlessly debatable points.

I for one would appreciate Mike Shamos' historical opinion on these ideas. I am told pool was once a great spectator sport in the US back in the '20s, it still is in England with snooker and huge $$ for the players, and I think Barry Hearn is doing well with his World Pool Masters tournament in Europe, with TV$$.
Click to expand...

I think somewhere along the line, people stopped doing it for the competition and just settled for the money. They gave up their honor for a short term payout, and the sport is still suffering for it. It is what makes the gambling definitely bad for the advancement of pool as a legitimate sport, but it is the only way that some players can afford to eat (forgetting about the posibility of a day job). I really don't think it will ever get any better until one of two things happen.

1. The sport dies out entirely and is re-discovered and played for real sporting reasons again.

2. An eccentric billionaire decides to start his own tour/organization with snooker-like payouts, and makes sure to ban anybody who is even rumored to be gambling on the side. (Legitimately betting on yourself should always be allowed, IMO)

Since I doubt that either of those things will happen in the next 100 years, I think it will continue to be the same as it is... a lot of fun if you are playing the game, but a hard road if it's your job.

Of course, I'm probably wrong.
 
JAM said:
The reason poker is attractive to some pool players is money. The cash payouts are much GREATER than pool.

Another characteristic about poker which has made it so popular today is that the layperson can relate to the players. Somehow or another, poker on TV has a personality. These are real human beings playing poker and not just emotionless robots going through the motions.

Pool can attract new interest, but what can the sport offer to a layperson who doesn't understand one iota about the game? Many times, when they tune in on the TV, pool is completely unintelligible to them, and they keep on surfing until they find something they understand, maybe that hot dog-eating contest on ESPN2.

When the powers-that-be figure out how to display pool in a manner which will bring in new interest, prospective sponsors will see a potential for a large investment. The payouts will be higher, and the aspiring pool player will strive to improve their game, compete on the tournament trail, and get them some. :p

JAM
Click to expand...

The show Ballbreakers may be pool's big chance, and possibly last, to gain huge TV popularity. Instead of trying to hide pool's image of gambling, it embraces it. Just hope that ESPN never televises the many cash games the poker pros play in.
 
Kevin said:
It seems this thread is drifting in the "whats wrong with pool today" direction and "gambling, good or bad for pool?". And simple but perhaps misplaced green envy of "who is really making the money in pool today 'cause it sure isn't me!" Endlessly debatable points.

I for one would appreciate Mike Shamos' historical opinion on these ideas. I am told pool was once a great spectator sport in the US back in the '20s, it still is in England with snooker and huge $$ for the players, and I think Barry Hearn is doing well with his World Pool Masters tournament in Europe, with TV$$.

Hustling stories are funny, in the "if it's not a good time, its' a good story" sense 30 years after the fact, like LilJohn and his 17,000 under the table, and who claims to have got the cheese after the statute of limitations run out, or great tales of escaping through bathroom windows after air balls are fired, dumping, "business" all amusing stuff, if you aren't on the losing end of it. Yuck yuck yuck, not. I also include the "great" movies "The Hustler" and "Color of Money" sequel as cautionary tales.

Of course, it only takes a few 1917 Red Sox game fixing matches, a few soccer goalie's and refs playing footsy with gamblers to fix matches, current steriod abuses to win, or great old poker cheats to ruin the gambling action... it is only a couple of intrepid investigative reporters away from finding the fixed roulette wheel to ruining the current popularity of casino "action".

"Action" for action's sake doesn't appeal, might as well be dice or horses or poker.

Is pool different? Yes. It is a game of skill, can be played for pleasure only, and takes immense but subtle skill. I have been playing 30+ years, and will never be quite pro caliber. Love the game, enjoy the game, the game will be here 500 years from now, it is that good. Hopefully it will be in a better state than now.
Click to expand...

Nice post Kevin. I too would like Mr. Shamos opinion on how gambling got so entrenched with pool in America. It really isn't necessary, and does distract greatly from a beautiful game.

ave
 
Kevin said:
Of course, it only takes a few 1917 Red Sox game fixing matches.
Click to expand...

Kev,
Just for clarification it was Chicago White Sox players expelled for fixing games in the 1919 World Series.

It is interesting to note though, that 1919 was also the year the Red Sox sold Babe Ruth (at that time a dominant pitcher and hitter) to the Yankees, resulting in the so-called "Curse of the Bambino" - no championships for 85 years (ending in 2004). Incidentally, Babe Ruth had the World Series record for most consecutive scoreless innings by a pitcher - a record lasting over 40 years, broken by Whitey Ford in 1960-1961.
 
Question and stuff ...

Jam ... Are you single?

By the way, I was going to tell you, that Gabe Owen's brother, Robert
is located in Washington, D.C.. He got his Masters, and went to work
there. I think he is an Electrical Engineer.

He is a nice guy, and a Pool player, but not quite like Gabe.
 
DaveK said:
No need to repeat yourself Snapshot :D

Dave
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Dave,
What you really meant was "he's single... he's an electrical engineer." How did he like the new Star Wars movie??

P.S. - just kidding.
 
wrong ...

I did not repeat myself. What I really meant to say is he is a nice
guy and not anal .... lol

He is not single. I am, and I was simply finding out if JAM is too....
 
Kevin said:
It seems this thread is drifting in the "whats wrong with pool today" direction and "gambling, good or bad for pool?". And simple but perhaps misplaced green envy of "who is really making the money in pool today 'cause it sure isn't me!" Endlessly debatable points......
Hopefully it will be in a better state than now.
Click to expand...



Mens professional pool is mostly (and unfortunitly) spoken in this direction. I can't really envision it every getting much better than it is today. Kevin, you pretty much have summed up the state of pool over the last couple of decades....

Also, if you look at the top professional players over the last 30+ years, who have retired or quit playing pool, almost none of them have ever gone on to promote the game at a professional level, help recrute sponsors for tours or tournaments, lend their name to game and help promote events. Only a small few have (and were successful- Hopkins / Mizerak just to name a few)...I think if they have had gotten involved after their playing careers, I think mens professional pool would have better exposure and better opportunities to succeed with the sporting public.
 
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