BCA Pool League Championship 2015
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
Bar box only event right? Got my fill of race to 7- winner break- wackem all' 9-ball at last year's event. Not a fan. Better things to do with my summer time if I'm in Las Vegas at the end of July...
Randy
Bcapl july 2015
I'm not sure where some of the comments on no 9' table events are coming from. It is an expense vs reward decision. Our customer is the league player. CSI cannot continue supporting the 'pro' events - (I think that is mis named)
If someone would like to help pay some of the substantial additional costs to provide tables, hang lights and all other issue, Maybe we could have 9' tables. I think it is shortsighted and a little narrow- minded to expect us to continue 'funding' 'pro style events.
A question remains though - history has shown it is only a vocal few that seem to require 9' tables. I grew up on 9' tables, but It is not practical to continue doing much on them. Particularly when over 90% of the pool in US is not played on 9' tables.
The facts are that YOU (the pool players) have shown you won't support 9' events. Remember the Qlympics? 2007
That was an attempt to convince amateur players to play on 9' tables. It was an $80,000 loss. OOOPPPPPS,,,,,,
I'm not going to discuss this until my health returns - I just find the discussion a little illogical. It's OK for me to blow a ton of money on 9' tables when only a few will support them. Am I missing something?
Please notice there are no ultimatums being stated - unlike many of the vocal few. Perhaps there is a valid solution - but maybe not.
This is strictly my mind wandering. Just kinda wondering ........
Mark Griffin
I'm not sure where some of the comments on no 9' table events are coming from. It is an expense vs reward decision. Our customer is the league player. CSI cannot continue supporting the 'pro' events - (I think that is mis named)
If someone would like to help pay some of the substantial additional costs to provide tables, hang lights and all other issue, Maybe we could have 9' tables. I think it is shortsighted and a little narrow- minded to expect us to continue 'funding' 'pro style events.
A question remains though - history has shown it is only a vocal few that seem to require 9' tables. I grew up on 9' tables, but It is not practical to continue doing much on them. Particularly when over 90% of the pool in US is not played on 9' tables.
The facts are that YOU (the pool players) have shown you won't support 9' events. Remember the Qlympics? 2007
That was an attempt to convince amateur players to play on 9' tables. It was an $80,000 loss. OOOPPPPPS,,,,,,
I'm not going to discuss this until my health returns - I just find the discussion a little illogical. It's OK for me to blow a ton of money on 9' tables when only a few will support them. Am I missing something?
Please notice there are no ultimatums being stated - unlike many of the vocal few. Perhaps there is a valid solution - but maybe not.
This is strictly my mind wandering. Just kinda wondering ........
Mark Griffin
Bcapl july 2015
I'm not sure where some of the comments on no 9' table events are coming from. It is an expense vs reward decision. Our customer is the league player. CSI cannot continue supporting the 'pro' events - (I think that is mis named)
If someone would like to help pay some of the substantial additional costs to provide tables, hang lights and all other issue, Maybe we could have 9' tables. I think it is shortsighted and a little narrow- minded to expect us to continue 'funding' 'pro style events.
A question remains though - history has shown it is only a vocal few that seem to require 9' tables. I grew up on 9' tables, but It is not practical to continue doing much on them. Particularly when over 90% of the pool in US is not played on 9' tables.
The facts are that YOU (the pool players) have shown you won't support 9' events. Remember the Qlympics? 2007
That was an attempt to convince amateur players to play on 9' tables. It was an $80,000 loss. OOOPPPPPS,,,,,,
I'm not going to discuss this until my health returns - I just find the discussion a little illogical. It's OK for me to blow a ton of money on 9' tables when only a few will support them. Am I missing something?
Please notice there are no ultimatums being stated - unlike many of the vocal few. Perhaps there is a valid solution - but maybe not.
This is strictly my mind wandering. Just kinda wondering ........
Mark Griffin
I'm not sure where some of the comments on no 9' table events are coming from. It is an expense vs reward decision. Our customer is the league player. CSI cannot continue supporting the 'pro' events - (I think that is mis named)
If someone would like to help pay some of the substantial additional costs to provide tables, hang lights and all other issue, Maybe we could have 9' tables. I think it is shortsighted and a little narrow- minded to expect us to continue 'funding' 'pro style events.
A question remains though - history has shown it is only a vocal few that seem to require 9' tables. I grew up on 9' tables, but It is not practical to continue doing much on them. Particularly when over 90% of the pool in US is not played on 9' tables.
The facts are that YOU (the pool players) have shown you won't support 9' events. Remember the Qlympics? 2007
That was an attempt to convince amateur players to play on 9' tables. It was an $80,000 loss. OOOPPPPPS,,,,,,
I'm not going to discuss this until my health returns - I just find the discussion a little illogical. It's OK for me to blow a ton of money on 9' tables when only a few will support them. Am I missing something?
Please notice there are no ultimatums being stated - unlike many of the vocal few. Perhaps there is a valid solution - but maybe not.
This is strictly my mind wandering. Just kinda wondering ........
Mark Griffin
Bcapl 2015
Bryan,
I have no idea what you are talking about. And this is not the format to discuss. You need to contact our office (702-719-7665) - I'm inAZ for 2-3 months. I will NOT be answering any questions unless I understand the whole situation. I'm recovering - not debating or arguing:thumbup:
I don't know of anyone who got screwed over because of scheduling - except people who either read the charts wrong or refused to acknowledge a page ( when they were 20 feet away).
We are very sensitive to issues like that.
Mark Griffin
Bryan,
I have no idea what you are talking about. And this is not the format to discuss. You need to contact our office (702-719-7665) - I'm inAZ for 2-3 months. I will NOT be answering any questions unless I understand the whole situation. I'm recovering - not debating or arguing:thumbup:
I don't know of anyone who got screwed over because of scheduling - except people who either read the charts wrong or refused to acknowledge a page ( when they were 20 feet away).
We are very sensitive to issues like that.
Mark Griffin
You're not missing much that I can see, Mark.
Forget about arguing or justifying anything that you do in pool.
Keep on the mend and know that many of us appreciate you being involved in pool and hope that you continue.
JoeyA
Forget about arguing or justifying anything that you do in pool.
Keep on the mend and know that many of us appreciate you being involved in pool and hope that you continue.
JoeyA
I won't argue with you Mark. It was a year ago and it wasn't my issue. Just saying things happened and I was witness to it. I don't remember you even being involved
Hi Joey,
It appears I'll be there for the 9 ball challenge and Master Scotch Doubles. Might add the 8 ball challenge if time allows. Look forward to meeting you. Guess we'll have to discuss LD shafts over a drink or two. First ones on me!
Lyn
Hi Mark!... Welcome back and speedy recovery.
I guess since I'm being quoted I should ask you a direct question about my concerns regarding the upcoming Series 6 American Rotation Playoffs (in association with the BCAPL Vegas events).
I do understand the "$80K OOOPPPs' issues you mention, but since you've done a great job convincing SOME of us 'Amateurs' that 9 footers are the best way to go for the better more professional games in pool, I have to ask what about the American Rotation Events being scheduled throughout the country now for series 6? Part of the requirements for this 'league' thus far has been (like no Jump Cues) a 9 ft table. With your above comments (albeit mind wandering..with no ultimatums) I can't help but to surmise that "CSI cannot continue supporting the 'pro' events". ie 9 ft tables due to the stated cost over run issues mentioned.
I know you don't want to review this now but as you point out being"shortsighted and a little narrow- minded to expect us to continue 'funding' 'pro style events", I was wondering what I should pass along to the AmRo players who have been following your (ABCPL) lead re: the 9 foot table requirements for American Rotation Series?
I'm sure you can understand why I don't want to be 'illogical, shortsighted or narrow minded' in the least when offering AmRo brackets to some of the "vocal few (10%ers')" who are now aware of this 'Playoff Event' 7 ft table issue.
Looking at some of the current professional entries in the West Coast brackets and the North East brackets for AmRo players I'm not sure that everyone (who might gain entry into the Series 6 National finals) is aware that CSI's "customer is the league player" now and will probably no longer support 'pro' events. AmRo is for the most part player funded... say 90-95% for the payouts anyway.... right?
Thanks in advance for any considerations and supporting what Joe has worked so hard for in our sport. Just trying to plan correctly for the session and not misrepresent your comments in anyway.
Randy
('Convinced Ametuer- AmRo 'LEAGUE' player')
Last edited:
American rotation
AR is not the main presentation of CSI.
It is a special project that Don Owen, CSI, and Joe Tucker have created, funded and promoted.
Do not confuse it with the CSI main thrust.
You are trying to put words in my mouth. AR is only looking for 512 players in the whole country. A lot different than 60,000 players.
AR has the potential to gain sustainability with a low level of participation - and give a method for the top players to see how they stack up. It could evolve into something very special.
But it cannot replace the 7' tables or that player base. Talk to Joe, he would be able to explain better than me.
Also keep in mind, the beauty of AR is that we only need 1-2 tables for the finals. Much different than a 'pro event' that needs 8-12 tables. Besides, just because an event is on 9' tables - does not make it a 'pro' event. AR is designed to recruit the top players (pro or amateur) - provide a method for them to compete at a minimum expense- and to establish a 'pecking order or method to advance to higher levels.
What you have seen is not the end game of AmericanRotation. It really has tremendous potential. I don't think I would worry about the nationals of AR being played on 7' tables. Whole different issue.
On a side note - would you care to venture how much we have invested into the ABC League (which is American Rotation)? You can PM if you like - but the number is staggering. It will probably never be 'profitable' but We all feel there is a need for this type of competition.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful - but the expenses just keep on going - and the income takes a long time.
Hope this helps but I cannot get into a lot of details now. I would suggest calling me in next week or do
Mark Griffin
AR is not the main presentation of CSI.
It is a special project that Don Owen, CSI, and Joe Tucker have created, funded and promoted.
Do not confuse it with the CSI main thrust.
You are trying to put words in my mouth. AR is only looking for 512 players in the whole country. A lot different than 60,000 players.
AR has the potential to gain sustainability with a low level of participation - and give a method for the top players to see how they stack up. It could evolve into something very special.
But it cannot replace the 7' tables or that player base. Talk to Joe, he would be able to explain better than me.
Also keep in mind, the beauty of AR is that we only need 1-2 tables for the finals. Much different than a 'pro event' that needs 8-12 tables. Besides, just because an event is on 9' tables - does not make it a 'pro' event. AR is designed to recruit the top players (pro or amateur) - provide a method for them to compete at a minimum expense- and to establish a 'pecking order or method to advance to higher levels.
What you have seen is not the end game of AmericanRotation. It really has tremendous potential. I don't think I would worry about the nationals of AR being played on 7' tables. Whole different issue.
On a side note - would you care to venture how much we have invested into the ABC League (which is American Rotation)? You can PM if you like - but the number is staggering. It will probably never be 'profitable' but We all feel there is a need for this type of competition.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful - but the expenses just keep on going - and the income takes a long time.
Hope this helps but I cannot get into a lot of details now. I would suggest calling me in next week or do
Mark Griffin
Last edited:
Thanks for the prospective. I'll speak to Joe next week to find out what the Plans for the AR finals this summer. Get some needed rest sir... and Thanks again for the constant effort. Life gets tough sometimes even for the good hearted folks.
R
Edit: As I mentioned to Joe, it maybe that AR might have to be subcontracted out to one of the new rooms opening there just to keep the 9ft event location there in vegas... food for thought.
Last edited:
Vegas 2015
Rhatten,
Not to worried about AR - I'm actually trying to see if we can get something going with One Pocket too.
The two games are similar in that we don't need a bunch of tables.
We have to get our plans laid out for the 'meat and potatoes' of our event - which is 300 @ 7' tables and all that entails.
Then the USOpen 8 & 10 ball.
And special events come up last - which AR and One Pocket fall under.
But they have different problem. AR is kinda self funded through participation. And eventually it will have to attain that level.
One Pocket has no prayer of breaking even, unless we come up with a funding mechanism. Last year the added money was $7,500. Where does that come from? Maybe a local room would joint venture or similar - but either way, these events have to become at least close to revenue neutral. They cannot continue as acts of charity.
Time will tell - there are some interesting things In the works.
Markg
Rhatten,
Not to worried about AR - I'm actually trying to see if we can get something going with One Pocket too.
The two games are similar in that we don't need a bunch of tables.
We have to get our plans laid out for the 'meat and potatoes' of our event - which is 300 @ 7' tables and all that entails.
Then the USOpen 8 & 10 ball.
And special events come up last - which AR and One Pocket fall under.
But they have different problem. AR is kinda self funded through participation. And eventually it will have to attain that level.
One Pocket has no prayer of breaking even, unless we come up with a funding mechanism. Last year the added money was $7,500. Where does that come from? Maybe a local room would joint venture or similar - but either way, these events have to become at least close to revenue neutral. They cannot continue as acts of charity.
Time will tell - there are some interesting things In the works.
Markg
Hi Mark,
Hope your recovery is going well. I was wondering about your stat above that 90% of pool is played on something other than 9' table. Is this your swag or is it supported by stats? That percentage really surprised me.
Al
Bcapl 2015
I don't believe there are any stats on amount of play on tables by size.
This number (actually I was hearing as high as 95% 15-20 years ago) is probably a derivative of number of tables - which there are some rough numbers around.
I personally asked people like Randy G and others their thoughts - all thought at least 90%.
Here are some rough numbers that I think can be 'verified'. There are between 300,000 and 500,000 'coin operated' tables in US. Last time the BCA tried to 'count' pool rooms, they ended up with about 4,000 rooms in the US. Their definition was (I think) 2 or more tables. As far as pool rooms with 6 or more 9' tables - I'm betting there are not even 1,000 rooms.
Keep in mind, during the heyday , NYC had over 4,000 rooms by itself!
I feel pretty comfortable with the 90% number. Obviously there are 'hotspots' around the country - but the fact remains that the vast majority of pool is played on smaller tables. For discussion purposes, I would consider a 46 x 92 as a full size table. In my mind, the size breaks down at the 44 x88 (4x8) size. With the majority in the 40 x 80 (3.5 x7 size).
Hope that helps - wish I had better facts but I don't think they exist.
One caveat - home tables are not being counted. Because of several factors. Many are never used - and very few people have access to them. However, they should still be 'addressed'.
Mark Griffin
I don't believe there are any stats on amount of play on tables by size.
This number (actually I was hearing as high as 95% 15-20 years ago) is probably a derivative of number of tables - which there are some rough numbers around.
I personally asked people like Randy G and others their thoughts - all thought at least 90%.
Here are some rough numbers that I think can be 'verified'. There are between 300,000 and 500,000 'coin operated' tables in US. Last time the BCA tried to 'count' pool rooms, they ended up with about 4,000 rooms in the US. Their definition was (I think) 2 or more tables. As far as pool rooms with 6 or more 9' tables - I'm betting there are not even 1,000 rooms.
Keep in mind, during the heyday , NYC had over 4,000 rooms by itself!
I feel pretty comfortable with the 90% number. Obviously there are 'hotspots' around the country - but the fact remains that the vast majority of pool is played on smaller tables. For discussion purposes, I would consider a 46 x 92 as a full size table. In my mind, the size breaks down at the 44 x88 (4x8) size. With the majority in the 40 x 80 (3.5 x7 size).
Hope that helps - wish I had better facts but I don't think they exist.
One caveat - home tables are not being counted. Because of several factors. Many are never used - and very few people have access to them. However, they should still be 'addressed'.
Mark Griffin
So what is the size of the tables for the championships, 40x80?
I have a Diamond 8 footer, but the inside of the rails measures 45x90, not 44x88.