BCA rules question

TSW

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hypothetical situation that came up in my local pool room recently:

Say you're playing nine-ball according to BCA rules. If you have cue ball in hand, are you allowed to use the cue ball to measure a gap between obstructing balls on the table?

I said that you can, my friends said you cannot.

My friends relied on Rule 3.42, which states that players may not use "a ball" to measure gaps.

I used Rule 1.3, which states that "[e]xtra or out-of-play balls may not be used by players to check clearance," and Rule 5.10 (in the nine-ball section), which states that "[w]hen the cue ball is in hand, the player may place the cue ball anywhere on the bed of the table, except in contact with an object ball. The player may continue to adjust the position of the cue ball until shooting."

I also argued that the rules, for the most part, punish actions and not intentions. Placing the cue ball anywhere on the table is clearly legal, so disallowing gap measurement here would take a legal action and make it a foul just because of a presumed intention on the part of the shooter.

BCA rules available here: http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml

Who's right? Also, would the answer change if one were playing a game other than nine-ball (that is, is Rule 5.10 dispositive)?

Any help is appreciated.
 
Foul

3.42 DEVICES
Players are not allowed to use a ball, the triangle or any other width-measuring device to see if the cue ball or an object ball would travel through a gap, etc. Only the cue stick may be used as an aid to judge gaps or as an aid to aligning a shot., so long as the cue is held by the hand. To do so otherwise is a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct. (Also see Rules 1.3, 1.4 and 2.15)

Yes you can place the cue ball anywhere and make adjustments as needed when attempting a shot. But, when you use the cue to see if a ball will fit than it's a foul.
 
sheaprek said:
3.42 DEVICES
Players are not allowed to use a ball, the triangle or any other width-measuring device to see if the cue ball or an object ball would travel through a gap, etc. Only the cue stick may be used as an aid to judge gaps or as an aid to aligning a shot., so long as the cue is held by the hand. To do so otherwise is a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct. (Also see Rules 1.3, 1.4 and 2.15)

Yes you can place the cue ball anywhere and make adjustments as needed when attempting a shot. But, when you use the cue to see if a ball will fit than it's a foul.
Click to expand...

I dunno about all that.. In my job I have to sort through all kinds of wording. It can certainly be argued that he may have had intent to start his shot from what would be considered an "unorthodox" position and then afterwards elected to try another location.

It could certainly be argued either way? All n all though I agree with you becuase the "intent" of the rules say no, but it's a letter of the law (or rule in this case) vs the spirit of the law (rule.) Letter sais, it's chicken****, but you can do it. The "spirit" or "intent" seems to point towards no.

DJ
 
"May place the cueball anywhere on the bed of the table" means that you may spot the cueball and play a legal shot from anywhere on the table, not use the cueball as a measuring device.

If you are placing the cueball in a gap to determine whether a ball will pass, that's measuring. You're just twisting rules to suit your needs.

From the weblink you provided,

3.42 *DEVICES
Players are not allowed to use a ball, the triangle or any other width-measuring device to see if the cue ball or an object ball would travel through a gap, etc. Only the cue stick may be used as an aid to judge gaps or as an aid to aligning a shot., so long as the cue is held by the hand. To do so otherwise is a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct. (Also see Rules 1.3, 1.4 and 2.15)

I don't see how this rule could be any clearer.

Your friend is correct.
 
tsw_521 said:
I used Rule 1.3, which states that "[e]xtra or out-of-play balls may not be used by players to check clearance," and Rule 5.10 (in the nine-ball section), which states that "[w]hen the cue ball is in hand, the player may place the cue ball anywhere on the bed of the table, except in contact with an object ball. The player may continue to adjust the position of the cue ball until shooting."
But, you still can't use these balls for measurement purposes or it is a FOUL

I also argued that the rules, for the most part, punish actions and not intentions. Placing the cue ball anywhere on the table is clearly legal, so disallowing gap measurement here would take a legal action and make it a foul just because of a presumed intention on the part of the shooter. As a Ref, I would immediately call a foul if you took the cue ball (while in hand, or a pocketed ball) and placed it anywhere near the questioned area of measurement. IT is always best to keep you balls to yourself.

BCA rules available here: http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml

Who's right? Also, would the answer change if one were playing a game other than nine-ball (that is, is Rule 5.10 dispositive)?

Any help is appreciated.
Click to expand...


www.wpa-pool.com World Standard Rules (that the BCA adopted in 1999)
 
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As noted in the previous posts, under BCA rules, measuring with anything other than the cue stick (while the player holds it) is a foul. The problem is that it isn’t always clear what the player is doing with the cue ball when they have ball in hand.

Players with ball in hand are allowed to place the cue ball anywhere on the table and they can reposition it as often as they need to. Some players may choose to place the cue ball where other players think is a really dumb place. They may be seeing if the cue ball could go through the gap. They may be looking at carom angles. It might be seem obvious to you what the player is doing, but determining what they are really doing is not always a sure thing. Do you really know what the player is thinking? Because of this, referees will generally not call a foul unless it is very clear to them that the player was only measuring the gap and not thinking of positioning the cue ball there.
 
Mark Avlon said:
.... Do you really know what the player is thinking? Because of this, referees will generally not call a foul unless it is very clear to them that the player was only measuring the gap and not thinking of positioning the cue ball there.
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Personally, I think that if the player has cue ball in hand, there should be no restriction on where he places it. That way the ref doesn't have to guess. Measuring gaps, as you pointed out, is not the only use for a cue ball when in hand.
 
Not true!!!

sheaprek said:
3.42 DEVICES
Players are not allowed to use a ball, the triangle or any other width-measuring device to see if the cue ball or an object ball would travel through a gap, etc. Only the cue stick may be used as an aid to judge gaps or as an aid to aligning a shot., so long as the cue is held by the hand. To do so otherwise is a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct. (Also see Rules 1.3, 1.4 and 2.15)

Yes you can place the cue ball anywhere and make adjustments as needed when attempting a shot. But, when you use the cue to see if a ball will fit than it's a foul.
Click to expand...
IT IS NOT A FOUL TO USE THE CUEBALL WHEN YOU HAVE BALL-IN-HAND TO MEASURE GAPS. You may not take another ball or any other device to measure gaps.
 
The cue ball in hand is a live cue ball and if you touch it to any other ball on the table, that's a foul. Ball in hand to opponent.

Barbara
 
Wow, I definitely expected more of a consensus one way or the other. I guess this is a tough question. Obviously I agree with Jewett and satman. The rule is ambiguous, and it would be difficult and possibly inconsistent with the spirit of other rules to call a foul here. FWIW, I'm a law student, so I spend all day parsing language like this.

Re: Nico: Also note that the preamble to Section 5 (the nine-ball section) states that the nine-ball rules trump the general rules when there's a clear conflict. This would give Rule 5.10 more precedential value.
 
Barbara said:
The cue ball in hand is a live cue ball and if you touch it to any other ball on the table, that's a foul. Ball in hand to opponent.

Barbara
Click to expand...

Right, but what if the player obviously measures the gap but doesn't touch another ball? Is that a foul?
 
tsw_521 said:
Right, but what if the player obviously measures the gap but doesn't touch another ball? Is that a foul?
Click to expand...

If they use a 'ball' including the cue ball to measure the gap, it is a foul.

The rule concerning BIH should be worded better, to eliminate the 'loophole' guesswork that it can be placed anywhere on the table. (exception, it cannot be used as a measuring device)
 
tsw_521 said:
Hypothetical situation that came up in my local pool room recently:

Say you're playing nine-ball according to BCA rules. If you have cue ball in hand, are you allowed to use the cue ball to measure a gap between obstructing balls on the table?

I said that you can, my friends said you cannot.

My friends relied on Rule 3.42, which states that players may not use "a ball" to measure gaps.

I used Rule 1.3, which states that "[e]xtra or out-of-play balls may not be used by players to check clearance," and Rule 5.10 (in the nine-ball section), which states that "[w]hen the cue ball is in hand, the player may place the cue ball anywhere on the bed of the table, except in contact with an object ball. The player may continue to adjust the position of the cue ball until shooting."

I also argued that the rules, for the most part, punish actions and not intentions. Placing the cue ball anywhere on the table is clearly legal, so disallowing gap measurement here would take a legal action and make it a foul just because of a presumed intention on the part of the shooter.

BCA rules available here: http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml

Who's right? Also, would the answer change if one were playing a game other than nine-ball (that is, is Rule 5.10 dispositive)?

Any help is appreciated.
Click to expand...


The question you ask was "are you allowed to use the cue ball to measure gaps when you have ball in hand?" No your not, 3.42 says exactly that. You can't find another rule that allows you to do something else and say it preempts this rule. To preempt this rule it would have to say, 'this rule preempts rule 3.42.'

If you ask me this before you did it. I'd say no.
If you ask me this after you did it. I say "foul, my ball in hand now"
If I called a foul while you were doing it. I would expect an answer like, "that wasn't what I was doing".

It is pretty obvious to me here that if you walked up to the table with ball in hand and said, 'I'm going to measure between these balls with the cue ball' You're going to get a foul called on you. This will never happen because even someone dumb enough to try it probably isn't dumb enough to advertise it ahead of time.
 
CaptainJR: 5.10 contradicts 3.42, and the preamble to the nine-ball section states that section 5 trumps the general rules if there's a clear conflict. That's arguable pre-emption.

I like Bob Jewett's answer. Cue ball in hand means you can place the ball anywhere. It intrinsically makes sense.
 
tsw_521 said:
CaptainJR: 5.10 contradicts 3.42, and the preamble to the nine-ball section states that section 5 trumps the general rules if there's a clear conflict. That's arguable pre-emption.

I like Bob Jewett's answer. Cue ball in hand means you can place the ball anywhere. It intrinsically makes sense.
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You need to check your PM's.

Rule 5.10 is in regards to spotting and/or adjusting the cueball in the location you intend to shoot from. If you are measuring a gap and plan to pass one of your object balls through that gap, obviously you will NOT be shooting from within said gap.

When measuring, you place the cueball in a gap, remove it, walk over to where you will be shooting from and re-spot it in the desired loaction. If the player then proceeds to shoot an object ball through the gap they just measured, it's a clear and obvious foul.

When you place the cueball in a tight gap with the intention of shooting from within the gap but change your mind, no foul has occurred because you "intended" to make a legal shot. The rules of pocket billiards do govern intentions. If you take a measurement and decide not to use that measurement, a foul has still occurred.

Rule 5.10 does not trump rule 3.42, they are not regarding the same topic. One is for ball in hand, the other is for using devices for the purpose of measuring. Apples and oranges.

Rule 5.10 is in relation to spotting the cueball, not using it as a measuring device. At any time of any game, using anything other than your pool cue (in hand) to measure a gap or angle is a foul.

The rule states that you may not use "a ball" to measure, that means ANY ball, including the cueball. If there was an allowance to use the cueball during BIH, there would be mention of that, but there is no mention. In fact, they say that using anything other than a pool cue is a foul. Anything means a cueball, (in hand or not) an object ball, the triangle, your shoe. Anything other than the cue is a foul.
 
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Ok, saw the PM, but you basically addressed all the points here, so I'll respond here.

5.10 discusses only actions. It legalizes any placement of the cue ball with ball in hand. Even if measuring is illegal now (which I don't think it is), the burden of proof is on the non-shooter to prove that an illegal measurement occurred. There's virtually no way to prove that, unless the shooter admits it.

Even with an admission, I still believe that the measurement is legal. 5.10 is pretty clear, and it's my opinion that 3.42 is just sloppily drafted. It should read "out of play ball," just like 1.3 does. If that's not what the drafters meant, then the language of "extra or out of play ball" in 1.3 is completely extraneous -- they could just say "a ball." A fundamental canon of statutory interpretation is that all words in a statute have meaning. Calling a foul here runs into that problem, too.
 
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I have been a referee at the BCA Nationals for several years.

It is illegal to use ANY downed balls to measure a gap like this. There is one allowable exception, if you have cueball in hand...you may use the cueball to do so. The use of any other ball or object is NOT allowable.
 
poolboy17 said:
I have been a referee at the BCA Nationals for several years.

It is illegal to use ANY downed balls to measure a gap like this. There is one allowable exception, if you have cueball in hand...you may use the cueball to do so. The use of any other ball or object is NOT allowable.
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Would you please state the rule that allows you to use the cue ball (while in hand) to measure gaps?
 
I would just take the cue-ball and put it in between the balls as if I was about to line up my shot and then changed my mind. And if someone complained, I would refer to the "player may place the cue ball anywhere" rule and simply deny it was used for measurement. No one can prove your intent in this case, hence, rules are made for the game, not vice versa.

-- peer
 
poolboy17 said:
There is no rule that specifically allows this...I may have used a poor choice of words.

Mark Avalon had it exactly right yesterday:

As noted in the previous posts, under BCA rules, measuring with anything other than the cue stick (while the player holds it) is a foul. The problem is that it isn’t always clear what the player is doing with the cue ball when they have ball in hand.

Players with ball in hand are allowed to place the cue ball anywhere on the table and they can reposition it as often as they need to. Some players may choose to place the cue ball where other players think is a really dumb place. They may be seeing if the cue ball could go through the gap. They may be looking at carom angles. It might be seem obvious to you what the player is doing, but determining what they are really doing is not always a sure thing. Do you really know what the player is thinking? Because of this, referees will generally not call a foul unless it is very clear to them that the player was only measuring the gap and not thinking of positioning the cue ball there.
Click to expand...

When the player places the cue ball in the area of the 'gap' (either on the table or in the air) and uses it to measure for clearence, it is a foul.

The act dictates the foul. The player uses the cue ball for measuring, it is clearly against the rules.

I don't think it is all that difficult to determine what the player is doing.

I think there is way too much emphasis on the players placing the cue ball anywhere and readjusting in this scenerio.
 
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