BCA ruling or perhaps just common sense?

How on earth can the shooter be ruled he called a safe?

You cannot call 'safe' after the shot. Safety calls are NEVER obvious. NEVER.

If your league has 'approved' that short rail banks are considered OBVIOUS shots, than again... this guy called his pocket.

IMO this is just an example of a pool player gettign away with UNSPORTSMANLIKE conduct, plain and simple.

What good is having a rule book if there are no players or league operators stong enough to enforce it.

Safety call after the shot... BS. Weak all around. I surely would not play in this league.
If you are referring to my comment "pass it off as an after-the-fact safety" he didn't actually call it a safety. I simply meant he made an excuse to give up his turn due to CB position effectively turning his bad leave into a safety.

Appreciate all of the feedback. Does anyone have an opinion on the behavior after the shot?

For the throwing of the rulebook on the floor. Poor sportsmanship. I'd suggest you have a talk with all parties involved. I wouldn't go any farther than that, maybe remind them they can call a LO (assuming they actually can), instead of getting into an argument.

For the actual game, try to figure out exactly what happened. If you can get basically the same story out of all parties and an admission that Player A intended to bank the ball, whether he called it or not, change that to a forfeit and credit the other player.
 
Pretty cheesy is all I can think of.
It is pretty obvious that he did take the time to study the table after he made his shot. He didn't like the lay of the land and turned the table over with a piss poor excuse. It amounts to nothing less than cheating.

If player A hadn't of locked himself against the 8 and had a shot, he would have taken it. What then, if player B had mentioned to him,"
Hey bud, you didn't call that shot". See, then another argument.

But hey, if you can take a cheap win like that and live with yourself, go for it. Doesn't say much about ones integrity or pool playing ability.

Player B, altho he lost can at least hold his head high the next time he plays a league game. Can't say that for Player A.

Next time that I would match up, I'd make him justify every shot.

As far as how to handle the situation. I would have a sit down with both parties. The game would either be played over or I would
zero Player A's game out.
 
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If it went down exactly as described.
Player A loss of game based on sportsmanship.

Any player cussing another player/coach/team
Strike 1: minimum 1-2 week suspension and put on 6 year probation.
Strike 2: 6 month suspension and 1 year probation.
Strike 3: Lifetime ban.
 
If it went down exactly as described.
Player A loss of game based on sportsmanship.

Any player cussing another player/coach/team
Strike 1: minimum 1-2 week suspension and put on 6 year probation.
Strike 2: 6 month suspension and 1 year probation.
Strike 3: Lifetime ban.

Really? ... a 6 year probation for cussing. Where did you pull that number from? Why not 6 years and 3 days?

You probably want to cut of someones feet off for Jay walking too huh?

If you ran a league with an iron fist like that, you wouldn't have a league.
 
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I'm a league operator and as such I receive e-mails from league captians asking for rulings or other actions to be taken when something out of the ordinary occurs. We play BCA 8 ball in a rural bar league.

This one had me scratching my head a bit:
Player A is at the table and shoots a short one rail bank and pockets his ball. The cueball comes to rest locked onto the 8 ball. He steps up to survey the upcoming shot, looks at all of his possibilities and after about 30 seconds he declares "I didn't call my shot so I guess it's yours" to his opponent.
As you can guess, this did not go over well and a pretty good argument ensued which ended with the BCA rulebook being thrown to the floor and a vile name shouted at the the opposing teams captian.
They did agree that the was no foul commited but that Player A lost his shot. Played B got up to the table and played the shot with the cue still frozen to the 8. Player B eventually lost the game.

My first thought was that I would have told Player A to keep on shooting since it was obvious he was attempting a easy one rail bank and although he didn't call his shot he also did not call a safety. If that doesn't fly we do a re-rack.
My second thought was that even though I think his declaration that he didn't call his shot was a bullcrap move it was also pretty clever. He accomplished his goal at that point which was to weasel his way out a difficult next shot but he also went on to win the game...love it or hate it, I cant help but admire his thought process in a twisted sort of way.

Any thoughts on this? Any specifics in the BCA rules that need to be addressed further? We have the self declaration on losing the next shot because he hooked himself and we also have the behavior issue with throwing the rulebook and swearing at the opposing captian.

Anyone ever had this happen to them? I've been playing for 45 years and have never personally seen it.

As much as people mock it, this is the exact type of behavior that explains why the APA has the mark the pocket rule. Player A should have been told to choose between shooting, giving up ball in hand, and giving up the game. Moving forward, Player A should be required to mark the pocket with a coaster on every shot he takes in every game.
 
Cheating

I was playing a person ball in hand 8 ball and they had no advantageous shots. So the walks up to 2 of his objects balls that are tied up to one another and hits them with the cue stick. The cue ball is 3 feet up table. I look at him and he calls "foul" on himself. I told him that wasn't right and it should be a forfeit really. I take BIH and runout. The next game he does it again, I want to break him in half. This is more than against the rules, it's against the spirit of the game. I tell the tournament director it should be loss of game, since this is the second time he pulled it. Everybody there knows it is completely changing the table layout.

The TD tells me BIH again and I proceed to win anyway. What some people won't do to win at all costs. These types always motivate me to play my best.
 
I was playing a person ball in hand 8 ball and they had no advantageous shots. So the walks up to 2 of his objects balls that are tied up to one another and hits them with the cue stick. The cue ball is 3 feet up table. I look at him and he calls "foul" on himself. I told him that wasn't right and it should be a forfeit really. I take BIH and runout. The next game he does it again, I want to break him in half. This is more than against the rules, it's against the spirit of the game. I tell the tournament director it should be loss of game, since this is the second time he pulled it. Everybody there knows it is completely changing the table layout.

The TD tells me BIH again and I proceed to win anyway. What some people won't do to win at all costs. These types always motivate me to play my best.
Don't think we even need a '3-strike' rule here....
..loss of game will cure that...
..as long as it's deemed deliberate
 
I was playing a person ball in hand 8 ball and they had no advantageous shots. So the walks up to 2 of his objects balls that are tied up to one another and hits them with the cue stick. The cue ball is 3 feet up table. I look at him and he calls "foul" on himself. I told him that wasn't right and it should be a forfeit really. I take BIH and runout. The next game he does it again, I want to break him in half. This is more than against the rules, it's against the spirit of the game. I tell the tournament director it should be loss of game, since this is the second time he pulled it. Everybody there knows it is completely changing the table layout.

The TD tells me BIH again and I proceed to win anyway. What some people won't do to win at all costs. These types always motivate me to play my best.

This is squarely within the "unsportsmanlike conduct" rule:

Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
...
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;

It's a serious foul and the penalty is at the referee's discretion (although it should be more than simply the penalty for a standard foul).

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.16

By the way, nice avatar. :)
 
Since we pretty much all seem to be in agreement on the original question, master9baller brought up a question I have. If you are completely snookered, is it appropriate to intentionally hit the 8 or an opponents ball (with cue ball of course), to try to combo one of yours in, tie his up, get a break out, etc? I will occasionally just roll the cue away from everything giving the opponent bih if I'm completely stuck and would rather miss everything than go for a dangerous shot. Maybe it's because nobody in my casual league ever does it, but it seems a bit cheesy. Thoughts?
 
Since we pretty much all seem to be in agreement on the original question, master9baller brought up a question I have. If you are completely snookered, is it appropriate to intentionally hit the 8 or an opponents ball (with cue ball of course), to try to combo one of yours in, tie his up, get a break out, etc? I will occasionally just roll the cue away from everything giving the opponent bih if I'm completely stuck and would rather miss everything than go for a dangerous shot. Maybe it's because nobody in my casual league ever does it, but it seems a bit cheesy. Thoughts?

So long as you're using a legal stroke, it is perfectly acceptable strategy to take an intentional foul and hit your opponent's ball to try to create a harder runout. Master9baller's scenario of moving an object ball with the cue is unsportsmanlike conduct.
 
Here's a thought!

He played by the rules, I'd say.

It isn't against the rules to exploit the rules, is it?

Smart move.

The only way to "fix" this is to change the rules.

Jeff Livingston

I Agree... But I think a new rule needs to be implamented that would solve this and other similar isssues..

A player shouldnt be allowed to call FOUL on him/her self, It should be up to the opponent to do so... Out of good sportsmanship a player can inform his/her opponent that a foul was commited, but it is up to the opponent to take action to the foul.

This will fix the problem - Hope the BCA reads this and considers it!:idea2:
 
So long as you're using a legal stroke, it is perfectly acceptable strategy to take an intentional foul and hit your opponent's ball to try to create a harder runout.
Completely legal, but you wouldn't consider it a cheesy move?
Master9baller's scenario of moving an object ball with the cue is unsportsmanlike conduct.
Clearly - 2nd offense should be forfeit of the match. I'd even call it cheating. In fact, if someone did that to me I'd assume they were giving up the game. Maybe it's just where I play, but if you move the balls with something other than a legal shot, it's the opponents option to leave them where they are or move them back. Even if you wanted to cheat in this way, it wouldn't work.
 
I Agree... But I think a new rule needs to be implamented that would solve this and other similar isssues..

A player shouldnt be allowed to call FOUL on him/her self, It should be up to the opponent to do so... Out of good sportsmanship a player can inform his/her opponent that a foul was commited, but it is up to the opponent to take action to the foul.

This will fix the problem - Hope the BCA reads this and considers it!:idea2:

While I agree with what you say, in the original scenario, player A did NOT call a foul on himself.
 
Since we pretty much all seem to be in agreement on the original question, master9baller brought up a question I have. If you are completely snookered, is it appropriate to intentionally hit the 8 or an opponents ball (with cue ball of course), to try to combo one of yours in, tie his up, get a break out, etc? I will occasionally just roll the cue away from everything giving the opponent bih if I'm completely stuck and would rather miss everything than go for a dangerous shot. Maybe it's because nobody in my casual league ever does it, but it seems a bit cheesy. Thoughts?

Yes, I agree with TSW.

This is considered strategy and within the rules. It doesn't take away from the game because a lot of skill is required to pull of such shots in many circumstances. In fact, this makes the game a lot better IMO.

Huge, huge difference from swiping the balls with your hand or stick or anything else. Hell you could train a monkey to jump around and move the balls if you wanted assuming you have a monkey. I'm sure the rule book doesn't say anything about a monkey.
 
Completely legal, but you wouldn't consider it a cheesy move?

Because it has been well established that this is an acceptable 'move' in a tight situation. And it is within the rules of fair play. Any safety shot could be considered cheesy by some (i.e. stupid bar players). Do you expect a player to simply give up and 'sell out'? Besides in most cases you are intentionally giving them ball in hand.

This doesn't need to be discussed any further. As in the title of this thread, use common sense.
 
I was playing a person ball in hand 8 ball and they had no advantageous shots. So the walks up to 2 of his objects balls that are tied up to one another and hits them with the cue stick. The cue ball is 3 feet up table. I look at him and he calls "foul" on himself. I told him that wasn't right and it should be a forfeit really. I take BIH and runout. The next game he does it again, I want to break him in half. This is more than against the rules, it's against the spirit of the game. I tell the tournament director it should be loss of game, since this is the second time he pulled it. Everybody there knows it is completely changing the table layout.

The TD tells me BIH again and I proceed to win anyway. What some people won't do to win at all costs. These types always motivate me to play my best.

Haha, I would wait until he had one or two balls on the table and it was my shot ... grab all my balls by hand and make a cage around his balls after I moved them to the rail ... making a nice semi circle by hand completely safing him... then look him in the eye and say "Oops, guess I miscued too, BIH for you now, a-hole."
 
Since we pretty much all seem to be in agreement on the original question, master9baller brought up a question I have. If you are completely snookered, is it appropriate to intentionally hit the 8 or an opponents ball (with cue ball of course), to try to combo one of yours in, tie his up, get a break out, etc? I will occasionally just roll the cue away from everything giving the opponent bih if I'm completely stuck and would rather miss everything than go for a dangerous shot. Maybe it's because nobody in my casual league ever does it, but it seems a bit cheesy. Thoughts?

I've done it a few times, not always successfully. It has gotten a reaction of surprise, but no arguments. I have heard voices say "if you're gonna give up ball-in-hand, why not?" so I'm reasonably sure no one was upset.
 
Player A is required to continue shooting under BCA rules.

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml

4.12 “SAFETY” SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a “safety” to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

These are tournament rules but there is an applied ruling in the big BCA book that covers this as well.
 
I can argue both ways:


ARGUMENT FOR PLAYER A:
In general, I agree with your first impressions (i.e., either Player A should have kept shooting or a re-rack should have resulted). However, that’s not the case here because you stated that, “They did agree that there was no foul committed but that Player A lost his shot. Player B got up to the table and played the shot with the cue still frozen to the 8.”

Therefore Rule 1.23 seems to apply and Player A wins because he was able to manipulate Player B into shooting the next shot. (Rule 1.23: Fouls Not Called -- “Any foul not called before the next stroke is taken is considered to have not occurred.”)

Comment: The only foul that Player A called on himself was Rule 1.17.3 (i.e., “You must always call shots that are defined as not obvious. This rule applies regardless of whether or not your opponent asks about the shot, and regardless of how simple or obvious the shot may appear.”) So, if they agreed that there was no foul (i.e., violation of Rule 1.17.3), then Player A made his bank shot and should have remained shooting. Player B (and his captain) were chump(s) for agreeing to no foul and then shooting.

Rule 1.23 prevails and Player A scores a win and gets to pat himself on the back for successfully manipulating the rules to his benefit.


ARGUMENT FOR PLAYER B:
The 2010 BCAPL player’s handbook states on page 65 under applied rulings for 1.45 unsportsmanlike conduct:

“Particular sensitivity will be applied to issues involving communication between players. Attempts to manipulate the rules concerning communicating and acknowledging called shots, safeties, or other required information will receive special scrutiny. For instance, acknowledging a called shot or safety with a barely perceptible nod and then trying to claim later that you did not acknowledge the call will be considered unsportsmanlike conduct. It is incumbent on both players at all times to ensure that clear communication takes place.”

Assume that the rule book was not thrown on the floor and the opposing team captain was not called a vile name (i.e., sufficent justification alone to rule loss of game for unsportsmanlike conduct):

IMHO, since Player A waited 30 sec. and called the foul on himself only after considering his lack of shape, it seems like Player A tried to “manipulate the rules” by requiring that Player B accept his interpretation of the rules and forcing Player B to shoot the next shot. Because, it seems to me like the only “sporting” thing for Player A to do would be to also allow Player B the option of shooting or not (i.e., being able to decline the “bullcrap” foul if desired).

Furthermore, since they agreed that there was no foul (i.e., there was no violation of Rule 1.17.3 and that Player A therefore legally pocketed a ball), it seems to me like unsportsmanlike conduct for Player A since he clearly knows the rules and still argued (against the rules) that it was Player B’s turn to shoot.

Comment: The only way I would consider Player A’s actions “clever” is if he had declared a safety in advance of shooting.

To the OP and league operator, good luck with your decision.

In the future, if you have a cell phone, suggest you give everyone your cell phone number and ask people to call you if there’s a ruling that needs to be made. That way you can make your rulings real-time and nip most problems in the bud before play proceeds and the aggrieved party looses the game.
 
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