BCA Safety Question

J

JimSabatke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This has probably been addressed many times here, but searching for it returns so many non-related posts that I simply can't go through them all.

I have read a number of versions of BCA rules and safety play, for either 9 or 8 ball, is a bit confusing. The rules state that:

A legal object ball must be struck (OK, that's obvious)

In 8 ball, an "object" ball must either be pocketed or hit a rail. Does this mean an object ball from the player's group? I have seen posts and interpretations that indicate that "any" ball can hit a rail after the first legal contact; that "any" player's object ball can touch a rail or be pocketed; or that the cue ball can touch a rail after legal contact. Which is it?

In 9 ball some of the answers are more obvious as all non-cue balls may be pocketed or strike a rail after the object ball is struck first. Can the only ball to touch a rail be the cue ball?

TIA
 
JimSabatke said:
This has probably been addressed many times here, but searching for it returns so many non-related posts that I simply can't go through them all.

I have read a number of versions of BCA rules and safety play, for either 9 or 8 ball, is a bit confusing. The rules state that:

A legal object ball must be struck (OK, that's obvious)

In 8 ball, an "object" ball must either be pocketed or hit a rail. Does this mean an object ball from the player's group? I have seen posts and interpretations that indicate that "any" ball can hit a rail after the first legal contact; that "any" player's object ball can touch a rail or be pocketed; or that the cue ball can touch a rail after legal contact. Which is it?

In 9 ball some of the answers are more obvious as all non-cue balls may be pocketed or strike a rail after the object ball is struck first. Can the only ball to touch a rail be the cue ball?

TIA
Click to expand...

Once you make contact with your ball if playing 8ball or the lowest numbered ball playing 9ball, so long as it (the OB), the cue ball, or any other ball touch a rail, it is a legal hit
 
JimSabatke said:
This has probably been addressed many times here, but searching for it returns so many non-related posts that I simply can't go through them all.

I have read a number of versions of BCA rules and safety play, for either 9 or 8 ball, is a bit confusing. The rules state that:

A legal object ball must be struck (OK, that's obvious)

In 8 ball, an "object" ball must either be pocketed or hit a rail. Does this mean an object ball from the player's group? I have seen posts and interpretations that indicate that "any" ball can hit a rail after the first legal contact; that "any" player's object ball can touch a rail or be pocketed; or that the cue ball can touch a rail after legal contact. Which is it?

In 9 ball some of the answers are more obvious as all non-cue balls may be pocketed or strike a rail after the object ball is struck first. Can the only ball to touch a rail be the cue ball?

TIA
Click to expand...

:confused:
The thread title is "BCA Safety Question" which makes me wonder if maybe you haven't quite asked what you were trying to ask. What you seem to be just actually asking is no more than just "What consititutes a legal shot?"

Assuming what constitutes a legal shot is what you are asking BIG_H515 has given you the answer in as brief a terminology as is possible.

It's hard to imagine where you could have ever seen a BCA Rule on 8 ball which can be interpreted to mean that it must be one of your own object balls which hits a cushion in order to make a shot legal when no ball is potted. Some obscure local bar rule maybe, but never a BCA Rule surely?

We've all been in the local bar where you have to call your pocket in Swahili while standing on one leg and bank the 8 ball off 3 rails, except on the last Sunday in Lent when practising Catholics only can bank it off any even number of rails........as long as they get some felings of guilt in there somewhere :smile:
 
JimSabatke said:
This has probably been addressed many times here, but searching for it returns so many non-related posts that I simply can't go through them all.

I have read a number of versions of BCA rules and safety play, for either 9 or 8 ball, is a bit confusing. The rules state that:

A legal object ball must be struck (OK, that's obvious)

In 8 ball, an "object" ball must either be pocketed or hit a rail. Does this mean an object ball from the player's group? I have seen posts and interpretations that indicate that "any" ball can hit a rail after the first legal contact; that "any" player's object ball can touch a rail or be pocketed; or that the cue ball can touch a rail after legal contact. Which is it?

In 9 ball some of the answers are more obvious as all non-cue balls may be pocketed or strike a rail after the object ball is struck first. Can the only ball to touch a rail be the cue ball?

TIA
Click to expand...

See if this helps.

First question: on 8 ball safety rule

** When playing 8 ball in BCAPL, you must call your pocket to every shot. Slop results you loosing your turn.

Lets say you are solids but you are hooked and you have to kick at your ball. So it happens, you have a nice cluster of 1, 3 and 5 by the corner pocket and you call to make the one ball. So, that makes 1 ball your "object ball" but when you kicked you didn't contact 1 but 5 instead.

If you drove 5 or cue ball to a rail after the contact, then it is a legal hit. Your opponent does not get ball in hand.

Let's take this one step further with same layout. You called 1 ball but pocketed 5? You simply loose your turn, because it's a slop. You did not call a pocket for your 5 ball. Still no foul.

Second question: 9 ball rule

After a contact to an object ball (the key), cue ball OR object ball MUST be driven to a rail. An example, if 4 being an object ball is frozen to the rail, then the cue ball must hit a rail after being struck to the 4.

S.
 
sunnyday said:
See if this helps.

First question: on 8 ball safety rule

** When playing 8 ball in BCAPL, you must call your pocket to every shot. Slop results you loosing your turn.

Lets say you are solids but you are hooked and you have to kick at your ball. So it happens, you have a nice cluster of 1, 3 and 5 by the corner pocket and you call to make the one ball. So, that makes 1 ball your "object ball" but when you kicked you didn't contact 1 but 5 instead.

If you drove 5 or cue ball to a rail after the contact, then it is a legal hit. Your opponent does not get ball in hand
Click to expand...

I'm sure it's unintentional but this could be interpreted as if you might be saying that in that sort of scenario it MUST be the first ball you contacted (in this case the 5) which goes to the rail. I'm certain you know that it doesn't have to be the 5 or the cue ball and that it can be any ball at all which contacts the cushion. This is one of the aspects of interpretation that the questioner seemed to be confused about in the first place :)

Let's take this one step further with same layout. You called 1 ball but pocketed 5? You simply loose your turn, because it's a slop. You did not call a pocket for your 5 ball. Still no foul.

Second question: 9 ball rule


After a contact to an object ball (the key), cue ball OR object ball MUST be driven to a rail. example, if 4 being an object ball is frozen to the rail, then the cue ball must hit a rail after being struck to the 4.

S.
Click to expand...

Again, am sure it's unintentional but this could be interpreted as suggesting that the ONLY way a shot can be legal in that scenario is for the cue ball to hit a rail after contacting the 4. I'm sure you know that isn't the only way.

Any other ball that wasn't frozen to begin with might be contacted by the cue ball or the 4 after initial contact with the 4 and that other ball might then be driven to a rail which makes the shot legal without the 4 or the cue ball contacting a rail.

Alternatively the frozen 4 could have been brought off the rail by the initial contact with the cue ball and the 4 could then have gone on to touch another ball and the 4 itself then contact another rail, also making the shot legal without the cue ball touching a rail.

It's not in any way a flame sunnyday but when it comes to rules it's so easy for any of us who know exactly what the rules are in our mind yet still unintentionally write something which lets others go off with the wrong impression. Small wonder they took years to write some of the rule revisions lol :)
 
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memikey said:
:confused:
<snip>
It's hard to imagine where you could have ever seen a BCA Rule on 8 ball which can be interpreted to mean that it must be one of your own object balls which hits a cushion in order to make a shot legal when no ball is potted. Some obscure local bar rule maybe, but never a BCA Rule surely?

We've all been in the local bar where you have to call your pocket in Swahili while standing on one leg and bank the 8 ball off 3 rails, <snip>
Click to expand...

Actually, the above answer is how I did interpret the rules, however a couple people I routinely play with strongly insist that they they have seen the words "object ball" (called in Swahili :angry:) that, to them, must touch a rail or be pocketed, and that term means one of your own object balls. One of them has a printout of the BCA rules which does use the term "object ball."

To those who noticed that I should have posted "legal shot" instead of "safety," yes, that would certainly have been more accurate. This issue usually comes up when trying to make a safety. The people I play with used to play only a barroom rules game that had no formal written rules and a very strange mix of them. Every nuance of every shot had to be called, such as, "cue ball will brush the rail before hitting the 5 ball which will then hit the 7 ball, but not hard enough to see it move and then hit the rail 1 mm in front of the pocket before pocketing." This is actually not an exaggeration and there were huge arguments over what touched what. The way they played safeties was, you must: not pocket the cue ball intentionally, although since the penalty is shooting from the kitchen and making first contact out of the kitchen, they then would routinely scratch anyway; you must hit an object ball, but again no penalty if you don't; and you must call "safety" even if you make a legal one. Since I introduced and built momentum for adopting BCA rules, the play has become more sane with far fewer arguments. We are all still learning about proper rule interpretation.

Thank you all for your patience and help
 
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JimSabatke said:
Actually, the above answer is how I did interpret the rules, however a couple people I routinely play with strongly insist that they they have seen the words "object ball" (called in Swahili :angry:) that, to them, must touch a rail or be pocketed, and that term means one of your own object balls. One of them has a printout of the BCA rules which does use the term "object ball."
Click to expand...

Yes Jim....just about all the "mainstream" rules BCA/WPA etc do certainly use the term "object ball" but it definitely doesn't mean what those guys you routinely play with are insisting to you that it means. They are wrong pure and simple.

The "object ball" which the rules say needs to contact a rail in that context in BCA/WPA does not mean "object ball of your own group" It means "all balls except the cue ball".

As regards your funny examples of local bar rules madness there's been some great previous threads about this and you might not believe some of the wacky rules azb'ers have come across in all corners of the USA and the world. When in Rome......:)

Edit....I should have said the BCA Rules "did" use the term "object ball" and not "do". Thanks Creedo.
 
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All these replies and nobody took a second to look up the actual rule? :confused:

4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail.

It's super clear. I dunno what rule book you're using but the rules on the BCA site are the ones you SHOULD be going by.
 
Quite right for the current rules version Creedo, "numbered ball" instead of "object ball" which is what used to be referred to. Interestingly the latter is still in the official wording of WPA Rules on WPA's own website.

Both wordings of course have the same meaning as the explanation already given to the opening questioner. Obviously the BCA places he was frequenting or the other players he mentioned must have been referring to the old wording using "object ball" (but still getting what the rule meant wrong lol) :)
 
memikey said:
:confused:

We've all been in the local bar where you have to call your pocket in Swahili while standing on one leg and bank the 8 ball off 3 rails, except on the last Sunday in Lent when practising Catholics only can bank it off any even number of rails........as long as they get some felings of guilt in there somewhere :smile:
Click to expand...

Of course you know that if incest or fondling an alter boy are declared after the shot, than its balls in hand!
 
Memickey,

You're absolutely, right. However, I was using one simplest scenario to clarify what object ball and any ball in the group meant.

I interpreted the question as what is object ball and what is any ball in your group.

S.
 
sunnyday said:
Memickey,

You're absolutely, right. However, I was using one simplest scenario to clarify what object ball and any ball in the group meant.

I interpreted the question as what is object ball and what is any ball in your group.

S.
Click to expand...

Yep sunny, no sweat :)
 
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