BCAPL Nationals and NO-SHOWS (Sharking)

[mooseman]

I have a question/observation for the upcoming Nationals next week.

For the past 2 years the following has happened to me during my singles
event.

At my start time my opponent did not show. I went up to the front desk
after waiting a couple of minutes. They announced his name. I went
back to my assigned site and waited the obligatory 10 minutes.

Last year my opponent shows up with seconds to spare. The first year my opponent did not show so I went back to the main desk. While waiting in line this guys girlfriend advises they had been there for at least 5 minutes. In both instances I played and and eventually lost. Seems like a possible sharking technique to take a player out of his game.

The issues I have are:

1. If you are playing in the back room, it is a LOOONNNGG walk to
go to the main desk if your opponent is a NO-SHOW. It's unfortunate that you also have to repack up your stuff (unless you have a personal entourage to look after the stuff). This is enough for you to lose focus and take away your concentration. Either way it disrupts your prematch routine. Ultimately you have to make 2 trips in the end for the match to be forfeited if your opponent does not show.

2. I have been advised by some of my friends that have attended the
Nationals for a long time that some people do in fact use this as a sharking technique to throw someone off their game. (ie wait until their name is announced and then show up with seconds to spare).

My questions

If you are playing in the back room couldn't a BCA official make an
announcement from the back room for the missing opponent and annotate
the time?

More importantly, if your opponent still does not show up within the allotted time, is it permissible to get a referee to sign off on the slip for
your opponent being a NO SHOW and therefore forfeits the match?

For example you make the first trip to the desk. They annotate the time and announce the name. After you return to your table and wait the ten minutes after the annotated time, a referee signs off and it is a done deal and your opponent forfeits.

After further thought why even announce the name, any referee should have the authority to annotate the time and sign off the initial NO-SHOW. If no opponent after 10 minutes, then the referee signs off on the final NO-SHOW with forfeit for it to be a matter of record. At least this keeps the prepared player in focus.

Unfortunately forfeits will happen, my problem is when/if an opponent is
using this rule to put their opponent off their game. I am sure
something can be done to make this not such a problem/issue.

 

[cuechick]

I agree, a ref should be able to just come to the table and sign off. Very good ideal! That is one very long walk!

 

[cardiac kid]

mooseman,

Three years ago my opponent in the Master's event was from Spain. They called our match. He's a no show. I went to the desk. They put him on the clock. Fifteen minutes later he's still a no show. Gary Benson asked me to be patient as he probably speaks little or no English. Another half a hour later he shows up. I won. Still, he explained through another player that he was on a hot streak at a Blackjack table and apologized for being late. Yeh right!

Lyn

 

[mooseman]

mooseman,

Three years ago my opponent in the Master's event was from Spain. They called our match. He's a no show. I went to the desk. They put him on the clock. Fifteen minutes later he's still a no show. Gary Benson asked me to be patient as he probably speaks little or no English. Another half a hour later he shows up. I won. Still, he explained through another player that he was on a hot streak at a Blackjack table and apologized for being late. Yeh right!

Lyn

That's ridiculous. Congrats on your win though. What would be the recourse if you lost. Suppose it was in the final for the $10K.

There's more than enough time to play pool and the other extracurricular activities. Why penalize the prepared player?

I just think this should be relooked at.....

 

[klockdoc]

If you are playing in the back room couldn't a BCA official make an
announcement from the back room for the missing opponent and annotate
the time?

How would the official know that he was abscent unless someone told them he was a no-show?

For example you make the first trip to the desk. They annotate the time and announce the name. After you return to your table and wait the ten minutes after the annotated time, a referee signs off and it is a done deal and your opponent forfeits.

You still have to take the slip up to the front desk so they can record it. If the Ref has to take care of it, then he has to leave the floor and then others playing will have trouble if the need a hit watched.

After further thought why even announce the name, any referee should have the authority to annotate the time and sign off the initial NO-SHOW. If no opponent after 10 minutes, then the referee signs off on the final NO-SHOW with forfeit for it to be a matter of record. At least this keeps the prepared player in focus.

You would expect the same consideration having your name announced if you were late. This is just a common courtesy extended to all players, any league or tournaments. You are always going to have situations like this. Just practice up and use the extra time to adapt yourself to the table conditions. Look at it as an advantage that you now have over your opponent by knowing how the table plays..

 

[Celtic]

I agree, a ref should be able to just come to the table and sign off. Very good ideal! That is one very long walk!

This is an awesome idea really, hopefully Mark Griffin sees this and thinks about making this possible.

All they need to do is get the front desk to put the warning out on the load speaker that "soandso has X minutes to be at table Y or their match is forfeit". Then the front desk would put a offical stamp on the card and write the required arrival time on the card in an area on the stamp. If the player is not at the table at that time on that stamp then the ref can witness that the player is not at the table at the required time and can circle the name of the person who is there and sign the card as the witness. Then you as the player that actually showed up simply need to go up and drop the card off like normal after a win.

Having to run back and forth multiple times to the desk and having to deal with the gong show of crowds and similar situations is a pain in the neck. At least this way you only have to go to the desk once, the second time you are going there you are handing in a win.

 

[mooseman]

How would the official know that he was abscent unless someone told them he was a no-show?



You still have to take the slip up to the front desk so they can record it. If the Ref has to take care of it, then he has to leave the floor and then others playing will have trouble if the need a hit watched.



You would expect the same consideration having your name announced if you were late. This is just a common courtesy extended to all players, any league or tournaments. You are always going to have situations like this. Just practice up and use the extra time to adapt yourself to the table conditions. Look at it as an advantage that you now have over your opponent by knowing how the table plays..

As the referee is a sanctioned official I would think his observation would be valid.

The scenario could be as follows:

1. You pick up the scoresheet.
2. Arrive at the site.
3. At start time if table is available for play, wait XXX minutes.
4. If opponent is not available after XXX minutes, contact referee for the section you are playing in.
5. Referee confirms your opponent is not present.
6. Referee anotates scoresheet with current time and writes in the drop dead time.
7. If opponent does not show by drop dead time, then contact referee once again.
8. Referee signs sheet and annotates the winner.
9. Winning player takes sheet up to tournament table and turns it in.

This means only one trip to turn in the scoresheet. No different than if the match was actually played.

While it is true you can get the speed of the table down does not preclude the requirement to repack up your stuff just to make the LONG trip to the desk just to announce that your opponent isn't there. This has to take most players out of their game. Then you have to make the long trip back to the table and wait. Then if your opponent still doesn't show you make another long trip back to the desk to turn in the scoresheet.

Don't forget that for me 2 years ago I made the trip and my opponent arrived at the table after I had already left to turn in the scoresheet for the final NO-SHOW. I was only advised by the guys girlfriend that they had been there for at least 5 minutes. I didn't really push the matter as it could turn into a he said/she said incident. I went ahead and played but I wasn't settled. Did I get sharked? Maybe yes/maybe no. Since that was my first singles match I don't recall if the referee had any involvement regarding the scoresheet process.

I don't really consider announcing the player as a requirement as long as a referee is a sanctioned official. I know the referees wear headsets. Couldn't they call in the initial no show and annotate the scoresheet. They could coordinate the time with the tourney desk and the opponent's name announced. Why make the LONG walk with today's technology!!!

I just think this should be addressed somehow as there is an inherrent problem with the current process.

 

[cuechick]

Either Celtic's or Mooseman's way I think would work fine. I think all score sheets give a match time so the ref for that section should be able to make this call. Though I do think an announcement is only fair, just in case the opponent misread the chart.

 

[klockdoc]

While it is true you can get the speed of the table down does not preclude the requirement to repack up your stuff just to make the LONG trip to the desk just to announce that your opponent isn't there. This has to take most players out of their game. Then you have to make the long trip back to the table and wait. Then if your opponent still doesn't show you make another long trip back to the desk to turn in the scoresheet.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but, do YOU have to inform the Tournament Desk of the failure of your opponent to arrive before the 15 minute grace period is up?

Here is the ruling from the BCA rule book;

1.5 Starting time of Match
The start time for your match is the scheduled time or the time the
match is announced, whichever is later. If you are not present at
the table with your equipment within 15 minutes after the start
time, you lose the match by forfeit.

Why can't you just wait for the 15 minutes (or maybe 20 to insure the forfeit) after the scheduled time for the match and then go the front desk and report the failure?

I know there are times when another player will be in another ongoing tournament and you will have to wait. I have run into this many times when in the Scotch Doubles finals play or singles and we would have to wait for the opponent to get done playing one of these other tournaments. In this instance, you would not know about the players absence unless you went to the main desk to report them missing.

You have a valid point, but, I think there are some missing pieces here that also need to be addressed before it can be put into the Ref's hands.

JMO

 

[Bigtruck]

Though I do think an announcement is only fair, just in case the opponent misread the chart.

How about a little personal responsibility?

If you figured out how to qualify for the event,enter the tournament and get to Vegas.....I would think if you can't read the board and get to your match on time. If not, it's a forfeit. period.

I don't even think they should announce that someone is "on the clock". 15minutes late, adios.

Ray <---------------On time or early

 

[cardiac kid]

Folks, Gary Benson runs a great!!!!!! event. His crew calls for last chances over the PA. If you are not present for your match, tough luck! I'm tired of late bloomers. If you touch the cue ball with your tip, it's a foul. There is no second chance. If every BCAPL rule was inforced equally, questions like this would not come up.

Regarding the referee's. I've been attending the May event for fourteen years. On every occasion where my opponent(s) asked for a ref, we got the wrong ruling. Not once. Every time. I've not meet a ref that plays at my level. I believe I know more about the rules of pool then they do. Sorry for the rant. It's a sore point. I know they try. I only ask for reasonably well trained people. Having and knowing the rulebook should be paramount.

Lyn

 

[cuechick]

How about a little personal responsibility?

If you figured out how to qualify for the event,enter the tournament and get to Vegas.....I would think if you can't read the board and get to your match on time. If not, it's a forfeit. period.

I don't even think they should announce that someone is "on the clock". 15minutes late, adios.

Ray <---------------On time or early

I think that is a very good point and agree with you for the most part.Still, I have seen them make last minute table changes etc... matches run over. And someone who has not played before may not know the protocol, it can be a bit overwhelming.

 

[cuechick]

The other possibility would to have a table set up, in the other room to handle no shows.

 

[Bigtruck]

Discretion

I think that is a very good point and agree with you for the most part.Still, I have seen them make last minute table changes etc... matches run over. And someone who has not played before may not know the protocol, it can be a bit overwhelming.

Agreed. There will always need to be room for discretion.

Ray

 

[mooseman]

I fully understand if a no-show occurs because another match is going on. ie your opponent is playing scotch doubles. But to hear your opponent was having a hot streak on the blackjack tables is unacceptable. Of course there are always exceptions to any rules or circumstances. Normally I would prefer to play given the choice. I just don't like the idea of being taken out of my game once I'm set to pull the trigger. The whole inconvenience of the current process should be addressed.

I just have a problem with the current process and the impact on the "RESPONSIBLE" player. There must be a way to expedite the matter. Whether it is getting a referee to use his magic headset to contact the tourney desk is one thing. Having to make multiple trips back and forth to the tourney desk is another thing when you have to carry your stuff.

I do like what someone suggested in waiting the 15 - 20 minutes per the BCA rules and just calling it a done deal to claim the match.

Either way I fully intend to get a better resolution than lose another match because of being intentially or accidentally "sharked".

Maybe I'll just wait till the nearest match on another table ends to throw the rest of the schedule off.....JUST KIDDING OF COURSE. Either way I do intend to get a referee to be one of my witnesses if my opponent is a NO-SHOW. Maybe I'll try to have more fun with the situation and try not to get so annoyed......