Be careful of counterfeits

Also posted in other thread......

Personally.....don't even believe there's an issue with this (R.Black) cue. The main issue is obviously with this user and his credibility now based on the other cases he's been outted on. He's not doing himself any favors in how he's electing to handle things either.

People need to realize that how this is handled (and whether and how they choose to press this) may result in determining the future of other raffles here. I'm sure that Mike doesn't want to be involved matters such as these, but this risk has been here all along. "One bad apple may ruin the whole bushel".....question is, is everyone going to let this happen? In any raffle, there is obvious risk in not being named a winner at all.
 
I was first quite impressed with your courage to refund everyone what they deserve. However, now looking at your math, I'd have to agree with Carl. You're either very stupid for purchasing these fake cases for the prices you presented, or you're just a typical scam artist who tries to cover your tracks with more lies. This is the problem when people lie; you get caught lying, you tell more lies to cover it up. Inconsistencies will always bite you at the end. Many of us here are actually well educated and smart, so it's unlikely you're getting away with the information you presented here.

Despite being a new member, I've been a lurker in this forum since the survey that asked who is the most hated man in pool, and now you might be the next candidate on this forum after Herman.

I recognize many members here by their nicknames, you included. It's just wrong to deceive your fellow forum members the way you did. All of us here have at least one thing in common: we love playing pool. We gather together talking about pool, and raffles are a good addition to the forum to attract more new members (myself included). What can I say? Many pool players just love to gamble, but we gamble for real money, not monopoly money.

Like I said, if you don't resolve this situation to the satisfaction from the majority of the forum members who participated in your raffles, I'll try my best to bring you into justice. I'm lucky enough to be born in family that can make a difference, and I will not hesitate to ask them for assistance. I'm not joking here, you and your brothers (presumably Darren and Brandon Lee) need to come up with a plan to resolve this, and I strongly suggest you to do it quickly.


tasaddicts said:
proof1.jpg

proof2.jpg

proof3.jpg


on 15th March i bought 2 cases.

on 31 march i bought another 5 cases for 1100 after a discount for large order.

6 raffles went off.

total cost of case = 550 + (1100/5)x 4 = $1430

shipping cost
cr903660421sg $64.50 9ballzz
cr903660449sg $21.45 Lc hui
cr903660435sg $64.50 capnstabn*
cr903683691sg $58.35 headmuses
cr903894364sg $64.50 ykndoit
cr903894378sg $64.50 danny ross

total shipping cost= SGD$337.8 = USD$270 ----------- USD$1 = SGD$1.25

howiesatwork 150 7.82%
SBSPatrick 171.5 8.94%
jp69l34rsss 120 6.26%
onebadscorpio72 120 6.26%
SOULHASSORROW 120 6.26%
9ballzz 87 4.54%
tommie1351 90 4.69%
donuteric 76 3.96%
DrAwInG-dEaD 67.5 3.52%
inas502 60 3.13%
L.C.Hui 60 3.13%
Danktrees 50 2.61%
AfghanBilliards 30 1.56%
benny-the-blade 30 1.56%
capnstabn 30 1.56%
Chuckles 30 1.56%
createatks 30 1.56%
cuejo 30 1.56%
Gazelli 30 1.56%
headmuses 30 1.56%
JamesV 32 1.67%
K Knight 30 1.56%
kicksnsticks 30 1.56%
Luck1st 30 1.56%
mattb 30 1.56%
Monto P2 30 1.56%
Nine Ball 32 1.67%
powerhouse 30 1.56%
Servicky 30 1.56%
Tim-n-NM 30 1.56%
Vincent 30 1.56%
ykndoit 30 1.56%
pooln8r 21.5 1.12%
bongskie 16 0.83%
exvoto 16 0.83%
ikant1975 16 0.83%
rick9005 16 0.83%
brandoncook26 8 0.42%
buddha162 8 0.42%
Danny Ross 8 0.42%
JossFan 8 0.42%
mel_smOg 8 0.42%
rossaroni 8 0.42%
slyfox 8 0.42%
total collected 1917.5

profit = 1917.5-1430-270 = $217.5
Click to expand...
 
Anyone care to guess the number of pages this thread would be at if JB wasn't banned? Thank god for that....
 
jemerson23 said:
^ This is the most logical thing for him to do. Fact is, only the winners are screwed out of what they were promised. I know that entering a raffle for an item that turns out to be different or not as promised sucks, and is immoral for the listing party. But in the end, the losing parties didn't lose any money they wouldn't have originally. If you entered the raffle, and you lost, life goes on, you were not cheated. The winner was cheated. People who are trying to get their money back now, need to think of the actual winner who was duped, not themselves.
We DO NOT NEED to get paypal involved in this as it will scew up the raffles here even more in the future or even cause them to cease all together. Think about the big picture here. If you blew $150 on his raffles and didn't win a case, I am sorry, but guess what, if it had been an authentic JB Flowers tribute case.....you would still be out the $150.00.

Tas, do the right thing and swap the real cases out. Or just buy the old cases back so the winners can buy one from JB.
My 2 cents.
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I agree to a point..but if we knew the cases were not the real ones...we probably wouldn't have entered in them..with as much invested....
 
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Just received the case I won. Tooling looks like a 3rd grader carved into some cheap leather with a blue map color. And there are blue stains on the top of the case. I am absolutely convinced he knew these were extremely cheap knockoffs and deliberately tried to screw us.
 
capnstabn said:
I am still debating putting in a paypal claim against him for the Richard Black since I asked for my money back yesterday afternoon.
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It is bad that he didn't give refunds to those who asked. However, I think there will just be more problems if paypal gets involved....and not just problems to TAS.

I don't know the best solution, but hope it works out. I bought one spot in one of his case raffles, and I still felt like maybe I shouldn't have. To me it seemed like he was just whoring out these cases in raffles to make a quick buck. Also, he didn't seem to be supporting other people's raffles. You don't have to, but most of the regulars here support each other to keep things moving.
 
No

tasaddicts said:
I will refund all the profits from flower case raffles.

I will show proof of the cost of the cases and shipping costs.. What ever is left i will send to tommie1351 whom I think all will trust..

For the Richard black , the raffle is full n fully paid so I went ahead with raffle
Winner pls pm me Ur address...
I think I have enough itraders from my past winners to prove that I will send out what is in the picture.

All proofs and money wil be posted on forums or sent to thursday by Friday

I think this is the best I can do.. I think it is fair as well since I refund all the profits..

Any other suggestions pls voice..
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I'm sorry but I will not have anything to do with this. I have worked hard for my reputation and I really don't feel I should get drawn into this. If you want someone to give the money to, give it to the AZ house pro and let him give it out. Nobody asked my permission before voluntering me for this and I must say NO.
TOMMIE
 
Just posting this here as well, Sorry if you read it twice...

AZMembers,

I would like to apologize wholeheartedly for how aggresive I have been on some of my posts. I get a little wound up about stuff like this and I don't realize until after the fact how aggresive I can get with words. If I have misdirected or offended any unintentional parties, you have me deepest apologies.

I did not mean to come off as overbearing, insulting, or demeaning in any way. My demeanor was intended to demonstrate how frustrated, insulted, and cheated I felt. My other purpose was to ensure that we all were protected and shared knowledge / findings are IMO a key way to do that in this situation. I may have used unnecessary language or attacks to get my point across.

So please accept my deepest apologies for some of my recent posts, however, remain diligent and research everything about these transactions. I sincerely hope that this issue can get resolved in a matter that makes everyone satisfied, however, I cannot say that I am overly optimistic and for that I apologize as well.

tasaddicts,

Do whats right man. You know what you did was wrong. I wish that for my own piece of mind you would post admiting that you knew what you did was wrong...AND...your going to make it right by refunding all of the money involved with the case raffles. I can still say that I am less than optimistic that this will happen.

There are three issues at hand here:

1) The fake JB Cases and fake predator cases that you knowing attempted to pass off as authentic.

2) The richard black cue that people wanted refunds from, yet, you ran the raffle anyway.

3) other products that you have sold that are now in question due to your integrity being compromised.

For the issue of the cases. There is no way people will be satisfied with you only refunding your supposed profits based of numbers you throw at us. We as the consumer/victim cannot expect to pay for your overhead in a situation where you lied to us about the product. The only acceptable solution for this would be to refund all money invested in the fake case raffles. No smoke and mirriors, No deceptive numbers. Just raw refunds of the full price.

For the Richard Black Cue: I believe the suggestion made before would be ok, however, Im not so sure that every participant will be ok with it. I think that those who requested a refund prior to you running the raffle should be refunded, Just as you refunded mine. You should honestly eat that costs as a penalty for running the raffle even though people backed out.

Honestly, IF you want my bottom line, honest opinion...you have a choice to make here. The choices being to realize you have made a mistake, refund the money and take the hit, but in return, you save a little face on these forums and people wont look SO badly on you. OR, you take off and run with the money. Those are the only two outcomes I see. Your situation sucks, however, imagine being on this end.

Carl
 
TAS the reason I backed out of the R.Black cue was because I did not want to do business with you any longer. I also won one of the cases and it is absolutely miserable to look at. You took over 300 dollars for a case that has blue paint stains on the top. The only way this will be settled for me is if you replace this case with one made by John Barton. Some of the other winners have communicated to me that this would be satisfactory. If you agree to this I will forget the 56 dollars of mine you refused to refund.
 
capnstabn said:
TAS the reason I backed out of the R.Black cue was because I did not want to do business with you any longer. I also won one of the cases and it is absolutely miserable to look at. You took over 300 dollars for a case that has blue paint stains on the top. The only way this will be settled for me is if you replace this case with one made by John Barton. Some of the other winners have communicated to me that this would be satisfactory. If you agree to this I will forget the 56 dollars of mine you refused to refund.
Click to expand...

The Black and the Flower cases are separate issues. Frankly I would like my involvement in all this to end with the Richard Black raffle.

But I think you are unfairly using that raffle as a bargaining chip to get yourself a new case in this case raffle.

Are there any guidelines for raffle regarding pulling out? If you had proof before the winner was announce that the cue is indeed a fake i would say you had grounds to a refund. But if the cue is Genuine then it was a straight forward raffle.

I understand your frustration. But please keep each problem separate else there will be no end. I cannot see any other solution.
 
I believe many of us, capnstabn included, requested to be out of his raffles before the ball was drawn. So what's he proposing, IMO, is fair. At least in my case, I wasn't questioning about the authenticity of the cue he was raffling, but rather his ethics and credibility.

MasterClass said:
The Black and the Flower cases are separate issues. Frankly I would like my involvement in all this to end with the Richard Black raffle.

But I think you are unfairly using that raffle as a bargaining chip to get yourself a new case in this case raffle.

Are there any guidelines for raffle regarding pulling out? If you had proof before the winner was announce that the cue is indeed a fake i would say you had grounds to a refund. But if the cue is Genuine then it was a straight forward raffle.

I understand your frustration. But please keep each problem separate else there will be no end. I cannot see any other solution.
Click to expand...
 
MasterClass said:
The Black and the Flower cases are separate issues. Frankly I would like my involvement in all this to end with the Richard Black raffle.

But I think you are unfairly using that raffle as a bargaining chip to get yourself a new case in this case raffle.

Are there any guidelines for raffle regarding pulling out? If you had proof before the winner was announce that the cue is indeed a fake i would say you had grounds to a refund. But if the cue is Genuine then it was a straight forward raffle.

I understand your frustration. But please keep each problem separate else there will be no end. I cannot see any other solution.
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Look if people wanted out of the raffle because of his actions then so be it.... He refunded other people so why not us...... he is a scam artist plain and simple and you sound like you are defending him. What he did with the cases was wrong and letting the raffle go was also wrong if people wanted out. He needs to do the right thing period. He comes on yesterday and saya he is gonna take care of it this morning.... Everyday he is on around 6:45am not today. Who would have thought!
 
donuteric said:
I believe many of us, capnstabn included, requested to be out of his raffles before the ball was drawn. So what's he proposing, IMO, is fair. At least in my case, I wasn't questioning about the authenticity of the cue he was raffling, but rather his ethics and credibility.
Click to expand...

Think of it this way. If the raffle is filled and date set for the draw and someone suddenly decides to withdraw despite having paid. Right before the draw was done. Which is the current situation.

Now. How to be fair to the winner? would he be willing to fore go his win? Would it be fair to him since because those who did not win wants their money back?

If the winner is willing to give up the results. Then it will be easier. He can just refund everyone their money end this issue.

I am also not saying that capnstabn should accept that lousy case. He should pursue it separately.
 
inas502 said:
Look if people wanted out of the raffle because of his actions then so be it.... He refunded other people so why not us...... he is a scam artist plain and simple and you sound like you are defending him. What he did with the cases was wrong and letting the raffle go was also wrong if people wanted out. He needs to do the right thing period. He comes on yesterday and saya he is gonna take care of it this morning.... Everyday he is on around 6:45am not today. Who would have thought!
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It is 12am here now.

And you are right. I am defending him. Not for his behavior nor his foolish actions in setting up these silly raffles. I am defending that last bit of decency that he has in him in trying to make it right.

I can tell you right now that it is a lot easier to just shut down and walk away. Then come back later under another name and start again. His raffling days are definitely done. So is his credibility. He has nothing left here for him. And you are really not helping.

I do not think he should have refunded anyone in this Richard Black raffle for now. The cue is as described. The raffle was filled and ran its course. If the cue after being examine turns out to be Genuine, would those people he refunded do the right thing and return him the money?

I do not like raffles. I never participate in them. And I certainly do not want to be here any longer then I have to.
 
I understand the points. Still, people wanted out before the winner was decided, and that would not have been a winner if the raffle wasn't filled. I will tell you this with all honesty that I would not accept the cue even if my number was the winning number because I requested a refund before the winning number was drawn. But who would believe that.

Many of us requested out, but instead of delaying the raffle, he simply responded that the cue was authentic, ignored all of our requests, and demanded that the raffle was on. His action was not only childish, but also questionable. That is not how is commonly done on this forum. Anyone is entitled to participate in any raffle, and the same principle should be applied to anyone who wants to be out even the payment had been sent, especially such decision was made plenty of time before the drawing happened.

In any case, this is messy, and I'm hoping he will make it right for most of us who spent money on the fake cases.

MasterClass said:
Think of it this way. If the raffle is filled and date set for the draw and someone suddenly decides to withdraw despite having paid. Right before the draw was done. Which is the current situation.

Now. How to be fair to the winner? would he be willing to fore go his win? Would it be fair to him since because those who did not win wants their money back?

If the winner is willing to give up the results. Then it will be easier. He can just refund everyone their money end this issue.

I am also not saying that capnstabn should accept that lousy case. He should pursue it separately.
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MasterClass said:
It is 12am here now.

And you are right. I am defending him. Not for his behavior nor his foolish actions in setting up these silly raffles. I am defending that last bit of decency that he has in him in trying to make it right.

I can tell you right now that it is a lot easier to just shut down and walk away. Then come back later under another name and start again. His raffling days are definitely done. So is his credibility. He has nothing left here for him. And you are really not helping.

I do not think he should have refunded anyone in this Richard Black raffle for now. The cue is as described. The raffle was filled and ran its course. If the cue after being examine turns out to be Genuine, would those people he refunded do the right thing and return him the money?

I do not like raffles. I never participate in them. And I certainly do not want to be here any longer then I have to.
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If we asked for our money back not because of the cue but his eairlier actions he should have gave us the refund. He gave Carl B his refund. The only thing that is making it worse is him turning the other cheek. As far as me not helping why should i he was raffling off fake stuff. Just like him I DONT CARE what my posts to towards the matter.

Chris
 
Chris, MasterClass made a good point. I believe Carl was the only person who requested a refund before Tas decided on the raffle's date, whereas all of us requested out after that. So the question now is whether or not it is fair for any raffle's participants to request a refund after the drawing date is finalized.

I still stand by my point. If anyone requests a refund before the drawing, the person is entitled to get a refund and the raffle is delayed until it's filled again. Plain and simple.
 
donuteric said:
Chris, MasterClass made a good point. I believe Carl was the only person who requested a refund before Tas decided on the raffle's date, whereas all of us requested out after that. So the question now is whether or not it is fair for any raffle's participants to request a refund after the drawing date is finalized.

I still stand by my point. If anyone requests a refund before the drawing, the person is entitled to get a refund and the raffle is delayed until it's filled again. Plain and simple.
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I see your point....
 
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