be honest, who really uses center ball ?

[mullyman]

Clearly, Mike is talking about hitting the cueball high if he's on the rail. Agree?

Fred <~~~ avoids dead center like the plague

To be honest, when I read that I imagined him jacking up and hitting center ball. But yes, I can see what you are saying. In that case I admit that I too would say "hit in the center" meaning don't use any english on the shot.
MULLY
fair enough

 

[DeepBanks]

My comment was meant . . .

Sorry..an old habit I got into when I started teaching this game. Now I can't help myself

Hi, My name is Steve, and I am logical! There, I said it!!

Steve

To be a compliment for sure Steve! Lot's of truth in what you said, but unfortunate how many people don't capitalize on advice or info that's right there in front of them.

 

[av84fun]

To be honest, when I read that I imagined him jacking up and hitting center ball. But yes, I can see what you are saying. In that case I admit that I too would say "hit in the center" meaning don't use any english on the shot.
MULLY
fair enough

But there was an INHERENT, unspoken qualifier due to the fact that the ball is on the rail and therefore only the vertical centerline could possibly be hit...and not the center on the equator which is below the rail.

But anyone who uses the term "center ball" to describe a hit where the equatorial center IS available is a poor communicator at best.


Patrick is, of course, correct that there are numerous poor communicators commenting on pool technique. He should know...he's one of them.

(-:

Jim

 

[Wazuela]

I used to be an english whore!!!

5 years ago when i first started playing pool, i would use english on almost every shot. I used to think that english influenced the path of the CB after it contacted the OB. Boy was I wrong!
Today, I mostly hit the CB center, follow, or draw. I only use english when it is necessary, such as when I want the CB to react differently off the rail or off another ball.
One of the things that really helped my game and CB control was learning how to hit the CB with certain strokes, such as the punch stroke.
Now that I'm using more center ball, I'm running out more, getting better shape, and more importantly, playing with more confidence.

 

[BRKNRUN]

But there was an INHERENT, unspoken qualifier due to the fact that the ball is on the rail and therefore only the vertical centerline could possibly be hit...and not the center on the equator which is below the rail.

But anyone who uses the term "center ball" to describe a hit where the equatorial center IS available is a poor communicator at best.


Patrick is, of course, correct that there are numerous poor communicators commenting on pool technique. He should know...he's one of them.

(-:

Jim

I think it depends on the point of view...

If you base the verticle axis and horizontal axis of the CB as it relates to the bed of the table you are correct.

However...If you relate the horizontal axis of the CB to the angle of the cue....the center axis points may very well be visable.

I personally use that association for applying draw or no draw in all jacked up situations..and it comes in handy when the CB is stuck to the rail.

Just my view point of what is center CB I guess.

 

[Cornerman]

As much as we were taught to do years and years ago ....we quickly understood the value of mastering spin, draw, follow etc; all the while using center ball less and less

So to be clear, the original poster was asking specifically about dead center of the cueball, right? There is a distinct reference about centerball compared to draw or follow in his post.

I think classic players like Buddy Hall and Jim Rempe are truely exceptional because they maintained their high level of play through the change of time ( and pool table equipment ) especially rempe, he definetly represents traditional text book style of play, addressing center cue ball the majority of the time .
.

I might as well answer to the original post by saying that the premise of the post is wrong. To give examples of Buddy Hall and Jim Rempe as "Center Ball Users" is completely untrue in every sense of the word. Therefore, it goes to conclusion that hardly anyone uses center ball with any high percentage, considering these two don't and didn't.

Buddy Hall uses every conceivable amount of spin (yes, left and right) and way way way way out to the edges. Always has. Still does. Anyone who says he didn't/doesn't has never really watched him play. You may know him, ran in his circles, ate dinner with him, but you either didn't watch him play or didn't pay attention every time he used english, which was like every shot. And Rempe was/is one of the greatest power spin players I've ever seen. And I'm not just talking about follow or draw. These two greats are great because they can use any type of english imaginable with any type of speed, not because they somehow stayed away from them.


So, with that in mind, I think the question is easy to answer. The answer is, hardly anyone uses center ball and it's foolish to tell students to use it often. And I doubt instructors tell students that.

Now, if someone were to say "use less english," I can understand that. But, the context of this post is about dead center ball, not follow or draw.

Fred

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So to be clear, the original poster was asking specifically about dead center of the cueball, right? There is a distinct reference about centerball compared to draw or follow in his post.

Yes, but the original poster asked his question with a qualifier that put it in a particular context:

...most pool players ... learned the importance of addressing the cue ball in the center when we all began playing pool.

As you confirm below, most beginning pool players learn the importance of minimizing sidespin, not of hitting dead center.

... The answer is, hardly anyone uses center ball and it's foolish to tell students to use it often. And I doubt instructors tell students that.

Of course.

But, the context of this post is about dead center ball, not follow or draw.

I disagree. The context of the original poster's question (the part that tells us what he's talking about) is the part I quoted above (what beginners are taught) - his question focuses on dead centerball, but it's the wrong question given the context.

And, by the way, the disconnect between the OP's context and his question is an illustration of my more general point: the term "centerball" is ambiguous.

pj
chgo

 

[Zoltor]

That's nice, but I hardly ever talk to you, so I'll be more specific and keep advising others to be more specific too. Simple.

pj
chgo

Are you kidding me, how more specific can you get then "center" ? Center is center, plain, and simple. If someone means high/low on the center axis, they'll say "high/low center", not just center.

I don't imagine it takes many brain cells to discern between the two, so I don't know why you, among a few others aren't getting this.


It's a stupid argument at best to say, center means anything else but dead center.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If someone means high/low on the center axis, they'll say "high/low center", not just center.

I'm happy for you that everybody you've met follows this rule, but it isn't my experience. In particular, in my experience the common advice given by more advanced players to less advanced players to "play centerball" does not mean use no follow or draw.

pj
chgo

 

[Cornerman]

I disagree. The context of the original poster's question (the part that tells us what he's talking about) is the part I quoted above (what beginners are taught) - his question focuses on dead centerball, but it's the wrong question given the context.

And, by the way, the disconnect between the OP's context and his question is an illustration of my more general point: the term "centerball" is ambiguous.

pj
chgo

Actually, I agree with you. The original poster's question just about explicitly was talking about "dead center," but as you say, the context of his question was more about "no sidespin." I should have said that he explicitly asked about "dead center." Maybe he needs to revisit his question.

The term "centerball" is ambiguous. In fact, if someone has to ask "do people really shoot centerball," then that's further proof that the term is ambiguous. If someone replies back by extolling the virtues of centerball after someone asks a question about "dead center," then it further illustrates that the term is ambiguous. Qualifiers didn't even help in this case.

Fred

 

[mullyman]

 

[jmizzo]

I hit center ball if the tangent line is on. You need to define where the ball would go with a center ball hit before playing your english. You can do it without it, but if you take a moment and look at it, your control and accuracy will increase. Allows you to figure out how much english to put on.

 

[CueAndMe]

And Rempe was/is one of the greatest power spin players I've ever seen. And I'm not just talking about follow or draw.

I agree with this. Rempe actually said on his straight pool instructional that he had the fewest skids on tour because he used english to help the ball in.

 

[CueAndMe]

running or "helping" english does wonders when u are shooting at a ball down the rail. I use a low cue ball on the majority of my shots because draw puts a forward momentum on the object ball and gives it a better chance to get in the pocket.

Sorry, but neither of these statements is true.

Patrick, I believe that both of these statements are true. As an example of transferring english, I'd offer the force shot on the following frozen 2 ball cluster. By putting draw on the cueball, you can tranfer follow to the 2-ball and sink it.

CueTable Help

 

[Patrick Johnson]

running or "helping" english does wonders when u are shooting at a ball down the rail. I use a low cue ball on the majority of my shots because draw puts a forward momentum on the object ball and gives it a better chance to get in the pocket.

Sorry, but neither of these statements is true.

Patrick, I believe that both of these statements are true. As an example of transferring english, I'd offer the force shot on the following frozen 2 ball cluster. By putting draw on the cueball, you can tranfer follow to the 2-ball and sink it.

We'll have to take these one at a time.

1. Transferring follow to the object ball can only happen to a significant degree when the object ball is trapped between the cue ball and another object ball, as in the well known 1 pocket shot you diagrammed. But that doesn't make transferred follow a significant effect on all shots, and in fact it's not. (By the way, transferred follow helps this specialty shot, but it's not the primary thing that makes it go; it's the angle and speed at which you hit the object ball. You can actually make that shot with stun or even follow on the cue ball if you hit it right.)

2. Inside english on rail-frozen object balls can give a slight advantage, but not for the reason that most people think. It can give a little extra margin for aiming error if you aim slightly rail first, but when people use the term "helping english" (as in this case) they usually mean that they think the object ball picks up some transferred english which either makes it hug the rail or helps to "throw" it into the pocket off the pocket facing. "Hugging-the-rail english" is simply nonsense, and "throwing in off the pocket facing" is at least theoretically logical but in reality isn't significant. I think people think "helping english" really helps primarily because that's how they usually shoot those shots so that's how they're most accurate with them.

pj
chgo

 

[CueAndMe]

We'll have to take these one at a time.

1. Transferring follow to the object ball can only happen to a significant degree when the object ball is trapped between the cue ball and another object ball, as in the well known 1 pocket shot you diagrammed. But that doesn't make transferred follow a significant effect on all shots, and in fact it's not. (By the way, transferred follow helps this specialty shot, but it's not the primary thing that makes it go; it's the angle and speed at which you hit the object ball. You can actually make that shot with stun or even follow on the cue ball if you hit it right.)

2. Inside english on rail-frozen object balls can give a slight advantage, but not for the reason that most people think. It can give a little extra margin for aiming error if you aim slightly rail first, but when people use the term "helping english" (as in this case) they usually mean that they think the object ball picks up some transferred english which either makes it hug the rail or helps to "throw" it into the pocket off the pocket facing. "Hugging-the-rail english" is simply nonsense, and "throwing in off the pocket facing" is at least theoretically logical but in reality isn't significant. I think people think "helping english" really helps primarily because that's how they usually shoot those shots so that's how they're most accurate with them.

pj
chgo

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that draw on the cueball doesn't help the object ball to begin rolling. Although I feel that there is a gearlike effect at work to help the OB roll, I'd be willing to accept what you suggest if I saw a slow motion video of this. Anyone know of any?

As for the rail shot, I have a hard time believing that outside english doesn't help to get the object ball rolling pocketwards as well. Again, I'd like to see a video for proof either way.

 

[softshot]

the way I see it,, beginners start with centerball because they don't understand the effects of hitting anywhere else. and at first are afraid to try..

then they get a little better and begin experimenting with english and slowly build up a knowledge base of where the balls will go if hit with english.

as they get better they push their personal comfort zone reaching farther and farther out on the cueball.

Intermediate players have reached the point of truely being able to "juice" the ball to extremes..

and then a funny thing happens.. those destined to become expert begin to work back towards center.. why?? more predictable results..

experts seem to start with center ball and try to find a way to get where they need to go with a center ball shot..

the biggest difference between the beginner and the expert.. is the expert went through his "juicing phase" and has the knowledge and ability to use those shots. when needed,

but more importantly he knows when english is not needed and in some cases complicates the shot more than necessary.

center ball (vertical axis) is the easiest road to take and provides the most predictable results.. the only time we should deviate from that is when it is absolutely necessary..

though I am as guilty of showing off as anyone else:smile:

thats my take on it..

 

[av84fun]

the way I see it,, beginners start with centerball because they don't understand the effects of hitting anywhere else. and at first are afraid to try..

then they get a little better and begin experimenting with english and slowly build up a knowledge base of where the balls will go if hit with english.

as they get better they push their personal comfort zone reaching farther and farther out on the cueball.

Intermediate players have reached the point of truely being able to "juice" the ball to extremes..

and then a funny thing happens.. those destined to become expert begin to work back towards center.. why?? more predictable results..

experts seem to start with center ball and try to find a way to get where they need to go with a center ball shot..

the biggest difference between the beginner and the expert.. is the expert went through his "juicing phase" and has the knowledge and ability to use those shots. when needed,

but more importantly he knows when english is not needed and in some cases complicates the shot more than necessary.

center ball (vertical axis) is the easiest road to take and provides the most predictable results.. the only time we should deviate from that is when it is absolutely necessary..

though I am as guilty of showing off as anyone else:smile:

thats my take on it..

Well put.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that draw on the cueball doesn't help the object ball to begin rolling. Although I feel that there is a gearlike effect at work to help the OB roll, I'd be willing to accept what you suggest if I saw a slow motion video of this. Anyone know of any?

Freeze two object balls together and shoot dead straight into them with maximum draw. Be sure all three balls (CB and two OBs) stay on the same line after contact to ensure a dead straight hit. See how far you can get the "trapped" OB (the one you hit) to roll forward - probably several inches at most. That's not enough forward spin to make any real difference in 99.99 percent of shots.

But even that small amount of movement isn't due to transferred follow. Do the same test without draw and you get almost the same amount of forward roll! Transferred forward spin adds little or nothing to this natural effect of the collision (because of the "elasticity" of the balls, I think).

As for the rail shot, I have a hard time believing that outside english doesn't help to get the object ball rolling pocketwards as well. Again, I'd like to see a video for proof either way.

I suppose you're thinking that outside spin transfers running spin onto the OB, which pulls it along the rail? If the trapped OB in our test above couldn't get enough transferred follow to move it significantly, how would the untrapped OB in this case get enough transferred sidespin to matter? Even if it did, how would that sidespin pull the OB along the rail if the OB isn't being driven into the rail to give it some purchase (grab)? With the follow shot gravity pulls the OB down into the cloth to create some friction, but if there was enough force into the rail to create friction with the sidespin shot, the OB would rebound away from the rail.

And even if you could get a significant amount of sidespin on the OB and even if it could grab the rail and pull the OB forward, how does "helping the object ball roll pocketwards" even help? Why does the CB need this "help" to move the OB forward?

And besides all that, the original claim was that inside spin helps these shots.

pj
chgo

 

[CueAndMe]

Freeze two object balls together and shoot dead straight into them with maximum draw. Be sure all three balls (CB and two OBs) stay on the same line after contact to ensure a dead straight hit. See how far you can get the "trapped" OB (the one you hit) to roll forward - probably several inches at most. That's not enough forward spin to make any real difference in 99.99 percent of shots.

But even that small amount of movement isn't due to transferred follow. Do the same test without draw and you get almost the same amount of forward roll! Transferred forward spin adds little or nothing to this natural effect of the collision (because of the "elasticity" of the balls, I think).

I see what you're saying here, and I see that I may have been mistaken all these years. I'll give it a try.

I suppose you're thinking that outside spin transfers running spin onto the OB, which pulls it along the rail? If the trapped OB in our test above couldn't get enough transferred follow to move it significantly, how would the untrapped OB in this case get enough transferred sidespin to matter? Even if it did, how would that sidespin pull the OB along the rail if the OB isn't being driven into the rail to give it some purchase (grab)? With the follow shot gravity pulls the OB down into the cloth to create some friction, but if there was enough force into the rail to create friction with the sidespin shot, the OB would rebound away from the rail.

And even if you could get a significant amount of sidespin on the OB and even if it could grab the rail and pull the OB forward, how does "helping the object ball roll pocketwards" even help? Why does the CB need this "help" to move the OB forward?

And besides all that, the original claim was that inside spin helps these shots.

pj
chgo

With the rail shot, I'm avoiding the rail altogether with outside spin. I'm not imagining anything pulling or the rail getting involved. It's about avoidance of the rail and about getting the object ball rolling immediately without wobbling. I think some confusion here is that I believe the original poster was referring to outside english, not inside, although I understand the use of inside english on many rail shots because it seems to reduce aiming errors.