be honest, who really uses center ball ?

[mullyman]

Why? The important distinction is between using sidespin or not. Hitting the cueball high or low on vertical center doesn't add aiming difficulty the way that sidespin does, which is the point of playing centerball.
pj
chgo

You ask "why"? Because center means center, it doesn't mean high or low. If it's high then it's follow and if it's low then it's draw. Center means center. I wasn't aware that Merriam-Webster had come up with a new meaning to center.

Now, if you want to argue the point of the vertical and horizontal planes then yeah, I would say everyone utilizes them all the time. But center means center. There is no other meaning for it. If you want to talk about using follow and you just have to use the word center then you should say above center.....and below center for draw of course.
MULLY
just my 2 cents

 

[mullyman]

I don't understand why this is such a huge debate. The only time you use "center ball" is on a stop shot and when you elevate the cue.

I hit stop shots below center unless they're like 2 inches apart.
MULLY

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You ask "why"? Because center means center, it doesn't mean high or low. If it's high then it's follow and if it's low then it's draw.

That's not clear in pool. Sometimes people mean a stop shot when they say centerball, but centerball doesn't usually produce a stop shot; you usually have to hit below center for that - but you say that's draw. Sometimes people mean above center when they say follow, but you can get follow by hitting centerball or even below center. The meaning of these terms depends on the intent of the speaker.

Center means center. I wasn't aware that Merriam-Webster had come up with a new meaning to center.

Were you aware that center doesn't necessarily mean stop and below center doesn't necessarily mean draw and it isn't necessary to hit above center for follow?

...center means center. There is no other meaning for it.

Seems there's more than one meaning for all of these terms, if you're interested in understanding and being understood.

But most importantly, this discussion is about the effects of using sidespin vs. not using sidespin, and has nothing to do with hitting the CB high or low (as I said in my previous post).

pj
chgo

 

[Island Drive]

When the cue ball arrives at it striking point of the object ball it has either forward movement, no movement...where it parks dead...or it backs up, three choices thats all there is with a center hit cue ball. The forward movement and rearward movement of a center struck cue ball are infamatesimal, as is the cueing higher or lower to achieve a stop shot...phew, I prefer Buddy Halls stop shot, the least amout of arm movemet yet the same results we all want when we do a stop shot:thumbup:

 

[Colin Colenso]

I don't understand why this is such a huge debate. The only time you use "center ball" is on a stop shot and when you elevate the cue. If you don't want the object ball to have collision based throw, then you use a tip of outside english. Most people develop their aiming using center-ball which I believe is wrong unless it's straight in. Using parallel line aiming is actually pretty easy when you get into the habit of using it and I find it much more reliable. You have to aim to cue ball EXACTLY to the spot on the EXACT line through the object ball to the pocket with a tip of outside to get a true cut of the object ball. Using any other english or no english will cause it to leave the path in which is was supposed to go when the two balls made contact. When I aim a cut shot..I have more than one aim line. I visualize the pin point contact point on the object ball as best as I can, that exact OPPOSITE contact point on the cue ball( which will be the part that makes the actual contact ) aim those two points on a parallel line, then use center ball for my initial aiming refernce, then move parallel one tip to the outside. It's difficult to do unless you practice it a lot otherwise it really intrudes on the pace of play if you're not used to doing it. But it's
extremely reliable even length of the table on tiny pockets no matter
what the cut angle is or distance.
If anyone wants a diagram of this I'll make one to help explain
what I'm talking about.

Actually, that isn't quite true. The amount of outside english to get the OB to travel exactly along the line of centers changes with speed and cut angle. Particularly the cut angle.

Below are the throw plots for a 1/8th thin cut and a 7/8 thick cut at slow-medium speed. i.e. The CB would travel about 2 table lengths past the OB if the OB wasn't there.

Note that the required gearing OE moves toward the center of the CB as the angle gets thicker and that being a half tip off can lead to considerable amounts of unwanted throw.

Colin
1/8th Ball - Soft Medium speed

7/8 Ball - Soft Medium Speed

Note that 1-tip OE, which usually corresponds to the 50 marker on the right here would undercut the 1/8th hit by a couple of inches per yard while the same tip offset for a 7/8th ball shot will overcut the shot by about 3 inches per yard.

The white area represents no or little throw. So the gearing zone moves significantly with cut angle. For fullish shots it is just a touch off center.

 

[av84fun]

That is true and false (impractical actually)

Anyone with TIVO or some other HD recorder can use slo mo to watch the measle balls spinning in on a great many shots (before OB contact).

For emphasis TOO MUCH spin (or unintended spin) is a VERY, VERY common flaw but to say that top players use primarily center axis (vertical) is simply incorrect.




I AIM AT THE EDGE OF A CUE BALL FOR ANY AND ALL SHOTS.
I NEVER LOOK AT AN OBJECT BALL.

First, I don't know why you chose to quote my comments since they have nothing to do with your remarks.

Second, you may have noticed that I have often written about you in respectful terms and do not mean to do otherwise here. But there is a HUGE amount of misunderstanding about your center-to-edge method and comments like the above are in no way helpful.

You ALIGN the top center of the CB with the edge of the OB and initiate a pivot from that alignment and therefore, you quite obvious DO look at object balls. It is the POCKET that need not be looked at throughout the process.

You have been enormously generous in attempting to explain your methods to people by phone but your posts on this forum...at least as far as I know, have done more to confuse the matter than to englighten it.

I think that is too bad since the process that you pioneered will, IMHO, emerge as the new standard aiming technique as soon as others who are following in your footsteps emerge to enhance, explain and carry on what you began.

I post the above with great respect and not for the purpose of being argumentative. Rather, I have come to have enormous respect for the METHOD and the method does not deserve to be belittled as a result of confusing and often rather bitter posts.

Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

I have played middle ball all my career. It is the fastest way to a win that is available. It is the easiest to gage and it will make the dog in us easier to control. I won all my tournaments by the middle ball game and will win more with it. Once you understand it it will be your friend all your life. Middle ball does it all.

Mike I hear that just as often as I hear "Let the spin do the work" and from equally great players.

It is TRUE that off center hits are a leading cause of missed shots.

It is TRUE that spin is often REQUIRED to obtain shape.

It is TRUE that the skillful use of spin allows for more moderately paced and therefore, more accurate strokes.

The TRUTH is that spin and vertical center hits should be and ARE arrows in the quiver of virtually all truly great players.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

I don't understand why this is such a huge debate. The only time you use "center ball" is on a stop shot and when you elevate the cue.

If you mean the spherical center, there is nothing about that position on the CB that guarantees a stop shot. Depending on the CB/OB distance, low center is required.

In addition, it is perfectly possible and often desirable to use side when shooting a stop shot on an OB that has a slight cut angle. The side is used to create SIT which pockets the ball on a full face hit thereby permitting a stop shot to work.

If you don't want the object ball to have collision based throw, then you use a tip of outside english. Most people develop their aiming using center-ball which I believe is wrong unless it's straight in.

You certainly can counteract CIT with outside spin but you can also simply adopt an aim that does not relate to the geometric contact point and make the shot just as easily.

In Stan Shuffett's Pro One aiming method, you can make almost any shot on the table with dead center cueing.

Since the use of side is often either desirable or necesssary, aiming at a contact point and offsetting CIT with english involves significant variables based on the pace of the shot and whether the side is accompanied by high or low cueing.

Regards,
Jim

 

[mullyman]

That's not clear in pool. Sometimes people mean a stop shot when they say centerball, but centerball doesn't usually produce a stop shot; you usually have to hit below center for that - but you say that's draw. Sometimes people mean above center when they say follow, but you can get follow by hitting centerball or even below center. The meaning of these terms depends on the intent of the speaker.

The intent of the speaker means nothing. Center ball means center ball. It doesn't mean top or bottom. Yes, I'm well aware that most stop shots are shot below center and I'm aware that you can "roll forward" using center ball.

Were you aware that center doesn't necessarily mean stop and below center doesn't necessarily mean draw and it isn't necessary to hit above center for follow?

Please don't talk to me like I don't know how to hold a cue stick. The entire point of this thread is that we move away from center ball on most shots and that is a tried and true fact. As I said, my definition of center ball is hitting the cue ball in the center. No one has argued that we use the vertical axis without side spin. I'm 100% confident that the original poster was talking about using a dead center cue ball.



Seems there's more than one meaning for all of these terms, if you're interested in understanding and being understood.

But most importantly, this discussion is about the effects of using sidespin vs. not using sidespin, and has nothing to do with hitting the CB high or low (as I said in my previous post).

pj
chgo

The thread is about players moving away from using center ball as they improve. It has nothing to do with the effects.
MULLY

At least that's the way I understood his question.

 

[gulyassy]

Mike I hear that just as often as I hear "Let the spin do the work" and from equally great players.

It is TRUE that off center hits are a leading cause of missed shots.

It is TRUE that spin is often REQUIRED to obtain shape.

It is TRUE that the skillful use of spin allows for more moderately paced and therefore, more accurate strokes.

The TRUTH is that spin and vertical center hits should be and ARE arrows in the quiver of virtually all truly great players.

Regards,
Jim

Spin is a necessary part of the game of pool. I practice it everyday. It is sometimes very frustrating to understand. It causes me to miss shots that I know I can make without spin much more easily. It will get you out of trouble, and make some shots easier than middle ball. I know that when I am in a tough match and missing balls or position I immediately go to the middle ball game and it seems for me to get me back on the right road. Pool is a very hard game to play 100% every time. To sum up what I think center ball play is this, if I need to make a ball to win no matter what shot, I find it easier, most of the time, to shoot the cue ball in a strait line, directly at the point of contact, more than with a slight curve because of spin, BUT, in a few certain shots, spin is the only way to properly execute.

 

[av84fun]

Spin is a necessary part of the game of pool. I practice it everyday. It is sometimes very frustrating to understand. It causes me to miss shots that I know I can make without spin much more easily. It will get you out of trouble, and make some shots easier than middle ball. I know that when I am in a tough match and missing balls or position I immediately go to the middle ball game and it seems for me to get me back on the right road. Pool is a very hard game to play 100% every time. To sum up what I think center ball play is this, if I need to make a ball to win no matter what shot, I find it easier, most of the time, to shoot the cue ball in a strait line, directly at the point of contact, more than with a slight curve because of spin, BUT, in a few certain shots, spin is the only way to properly execute.

I think we're basically pulling on the same rope here. I agree that the misapplication of side and/or a misunderstanding of how it will make the CB/OBs behave is a MAJOR source of missed shots.

So, yes, a center ball hit (or actually a little above center to get natural roll happening asap) has a lot to recommend it.

HOWEVER, reverting to center ball successfully depends on the player's understanding that...at least for longer shots where approach error tolerance diminishes...the point of aim is NOT going to be the same as the geometric contact point due to CIT which can be offset with outside english.

So, players who go back to center ball to avoid sqwerve as much as possible need to remember to choose a different point of aim or they will miss many shots...unless they get with Stan Shuffett and learn his Pro One aiming system in which case contact points become a thing of the past as far as aiming is concerned.

(for clarity...the contact point is, of course, still there since to make a shot, it is important to contact the OB! (-:

It's just that the CP ceases to be part of the aiming technique.

And given your advocacy of center ball contact, you would be an especially appropriate candidate to learn the system because in its most basic form, the tip moves to the center of the ball as part of the aiming process.)

Regards,
Jim

PS: I own one of your original Sledgehammer B/J cues and LOVE IT!!!

 

[av84fun]

At least that's the way I understood his question.

Mully, I agree that "center ball" should be taken to mean exactly what it says....the center of the damn ball.

Ask 100 people on the street to point to the center of a ball and 99 of them will point to the center of the ball...and the other one should be beaten up! (-:

Unfortunately, that phrase has been bastardized to mean...in some people's minds...the vertical center axis but if that is what they mean, that is what they should write.

Too late now though. Too many people use the phrase incorrectly so we have to just ask every time the subject comes up.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The intent of the speaker means nothing.

Unless, of course, you're interested in understanding and communicating with speakers. For instance, understanding and communicating would be much higher in this thread if everybody tried to understand what the participants in this thread actually mean rather than arguing what Merriam or Webster would mean if they were here.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The thread is about players moving away from using center ball as they improve. It has nothing to do with the effects.

That's a remarkable statement. What is there to talk about on that subject except the effects?

pj
chgo

 

[Rod]

Well, center ball is just that = center ball. It produces a desired effect. What if an instructor said use center ball but he really meant center left/right or top/low? I think he would have a short list of students, don't cha think?

When I say center, I mean center of the dam ball. If you say center but mean something different then we will have a very short conversation.

Rod

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... center ball is just that = center ball.

Which center ball? The one viewed from horizontal or the one viewed from the stick's elevation?

pj
chgo

 

[mullyman]

That's a remarkable statement. What is there to talk about on that subject except the effects?

pj
chgo

We can go on about the effects all day long but again, that is not what the original poster was saying. The whole point of this thread is that players move away from center ball as they improve. The original poster did not ask about the effects of using side spin vs shooting center ball. That's a whole different topic.
MULLY

 

[mullyman]

Unless, of course, you're interested in understanding and communicating with speakers. For instance, understanding and communicating would be much higher in this thread if everybody tried to understand what the participants in this thread actually mean rather than arguing what Merriam or Webster would mean if they were here.

pj
chgo

Well, someone else already said it, but if an instructor said to me "Use center ball on this shot" at what point am I supposed to assume he means above center or below? Center means center, Patrick. I'm beginning to think that you are disagreeing with people just to disagree.
MULLY

 

[PKM]

Well, someone else already said it, but if an instructor said to me "Use center ball on this shot" at what point am I supposed to assume he means above center or below? Center means center, Patrick. I'm beginning to think that you are disagreeing with people just to disagree.
MULLY

And if someone says, people were taught to use center ball, and certain pros use center ball a majority of the time, you think they are talking about dead center, and not vertical axis? Although that's what the original post seems to say, I don't really see how that makes sense. Who is going to hit dead center on a majority of their shots?

Context matters - if someone says, "hit center ball," then yes likely they mean dead center. But this is a silly argument anyway.

 

[mullyman]

And if someone says, people were taught to use center ball, and certain pros use center ball a majority of the time, you think they are talking about dead center, and not vertical axis? Although that's what the original post seems to say, I don't really see how that makes sense. Who is going to hit dead center on a majority of their shots?

Context matters - if someone says, "hit center ball," then yes likely they mean dead center. But this is a silly argument anyway.

Yeah, it's probably one of the silliest arguments I've seen on here.
MULLY