Before the BCA became a Trade Organization

[336Robin]

I have my own suspicions of how things were before the BCA became a Trade Organization but I would like someone several of you in fact to let me in on the atmosphere of what it was like back then.

About when did this occur? I've seem some posts about it don't really remember all of the details. I suspect there was a reason that this happened so I'm digging. I think this could be revealing.

 

[bdorman]

For the same reason it happens in every industry: the industry vendors have the funds to support the organization while the individual participants do not.

If you told players that it would cost them $500 per year to be member of an organization that would work on their behalf, how many takers do you think you'd have?

The other issue is that individual participants often have conflicting goals and objectives. Therefore, the organization shies away from trying to represent them (what position could an organization take that is both in favor of -- and opposed to -- a policy)? Vendors usually have simple and similar goals.

History-wise, I doubt the BCA was ever organized to benefit the individual participants.

 

[336Robin]

500?

For the same reason it happens in every industry: the industry vendors have the funds to support the organization while the individual participants do not.

If you told players that it would cost them $500 per year to be member of an organization that would work on their behalf, how many takers do you think you'd have?

The other issue is that individual participants often have conflicting goals and objectives. Therefore, the organization shies away from trying to represent them (what position could an organization take that is both in favor of -- and opposed to -- a policy)? Vendors usually have simple and similar goals.

History-wise, I doubt the BCA was ever organized to benefit the individual participants.

Surely the membership for an Individual wasn't 500? I joined a BCA league once that folded....I don't remember that.

 

[bdorman]

Surely the membership for an Individual wasn't 500? I joined a BCA league once that folded....I don't remember that.

I just made up the number. But $500 or $100 doesn't make a difference: it's more than individual participants will pay and not enough to fund an organization.

Like many of you, I play pool nearly every day. So, I'm more than a casual player but certainly not a pro. What would any pool organization offer me that could entice me to pay dues?

 

[336Robin]

Now there is something

What would any pool organization offer me that could entice me to pay dues?

Now that I can agree with. What were they offering? For me I thought the Pool Leagues were awesome and a cut above the norm but they sold those and went entirely Trade Organization. Anyone remember when this occurred? When did Mark Griffin purchase the leagues?

 

[336Robin]

2004

Now that I can agree with. What were they offering? For me I thought the Pool Leagues were awesome and a cut above the norm but they sold those and went entirely Trade Organization. Anyone remember when this occurred? When did Mark Griffin purchase the leagues?

I found it, it was 2004..not even 10 years and look how things have changed......

I find it interesting that its said that they didn't offer anything of value for a person to want to be a member....possibly the only player members they were carrying then were the pool league pool players. Im pretty sure that we had to join the BCA when we signed up for the leagues. Do they even offer a membership these days since the leagues were sold?

 

[pdcue]

I have my own suspicions of how things were before the BCA became a Trade Organization but I would like someone several of you in fact to let me in on the atmosphere of what it was like back then.

About when did this occur? I've seem some posts about it don't really remember all of the details. I suspect there was a reason that this happened so I'm digging. I think this could be revealing.

So what is it you suspect?

Prior to 1966 the BCA mostly published the "official" rulebook. Almost
certainly the most ignored rulebook of any activity known to man. But I
digress.

They were the sanctioning body for Billiards. So besides rules that nobody
read, they also sanctioned tournaments that nobody held, to dertermine
champions that didn't exist.

The boom ignited by "The Hustler" led to the revival of the
U. S. Open Championship. The mega boom from "The Color of Money" got
them into the trade show business.

Realistically, other than the late in life foray into leagues, the BCA
never did offer much for the pool players at any level.

Dale

 

[Island Drive]

I have my own suspicions of how things were before the BCA became a Trade Organization but I would like someone several of you in fact to let me in on the atmosphere of what it was like back then.

About when did this occur? I've seem some posts about it don't really remember all of the details. I suspect there was a reason that this happened so I'm digging. I think this could be revealing.

I would contact John Lewis ex director of ACS American cue sports out of WI, he is the word smith of it's history and its inception and direction.

 

[336Robin]

Hmm

So what is it you suspect?

Prior to 1966 the BCA mostly published the "official" rulebook. Almost
certainly the most ignored rulebook of any activity known to man. But I
digress.

They were the sanctioning body for Billiards. So besides rules that nobody
read, they also sanctioned tournaments that nobody held, to dertermine
champions that didn't exist.

The boom ignited by "The Hustler" led to the revival of the
U. S. Open Championship. The mera boom from "The Color of Money" got
them into the trade show business.

Realistically, other than the late in life forray into leagues, the BCA
never did offer much for the pool players at any level.

Dale

Dale,
So it was a late in game foray into leagues. I wasn't aware of that, then they sold them in 2004.

Now its roughly 10 yrs later and pool is struggling and I ask myself what would fix pool. So first I look at what was going on back then...when pool was in better shape vs. now.

Since there are always several parts to a problem the core problem will be the one in the way of nearly everything so I look to the core of it. Pool Players can be a funny bunch to market to and I have to wonder if they tried. It sounds like the answer to that is...Not.

I don't think that we would have thought in 2004 that things would digress to this point but here we are. Pro Players need events, Pool needs promoting to the general public and there isn't anyone to lead them. Now the BCA is a trade organization and it doesn't seem like they are offering.

I have to wonder if they woke up and said ok , We will do the job everyone has been expecting us to do but we need money in order to do it. Each of you send us $10 a year and whatever we get we will infuse tournaments with at say 10,000 added to as many events as we have money sent to us for...minus some minimal administrative fees.

Now they not only would be a Trade Organization but they would also be helping the sport. Since no one else seems to want to do it, I just wonder if they have any interest in helping the dying industry that its Trade Members so glady earn their living from and joyfully pay them dues for.

My suspicion was that the Amateur Player was as much to blame as them and I don't think I am seeing that as a reality although players are difficult to market to.

 

[itsfroze]

Me Thinks:

I think that I heard that the APA complained that by the BCA running a league it
was sort of a conflict of interest, and that is when the BCA sold the league. That's
to the best of my recollection what happened.

 

[336Robin]

I believe youre right

I think that I heard that the APA complained that by the BCA running a league it
was sort of a conflict of interest, and that is when the BCA sold the league. That's
to the best of my recollection what happened.

Itsfroze,

I believe you are correct to an extent. I don't think that was all of it but the result is the same. The result is a separation of them from amateurs.

 

[Roger Long]

It's a complex problem, Robin. It would be difficult for anyone to provide a viable solution at this point. And don't look for the BCA to do a reversal in their direction. They're apparently happy scratching each others' backs.

Roger

 

[336Robin]

Things Complex arent Usually

It's a complex problem, Robin. It would be difficult for anyone to provide a viable solution at this point. And don't look for the BCA to do a reversal in their direction. They're apparently happy scratching each others' backs.

Roger

Roger,
I agree that is complex. I find things that are usually complex in the end aren't.

Simple:

We need a respected organization to receive monies from players that are willing to be promoters of the sport. These monies could be used to save pro pool to some extent.
45000 members of this site x $10= $450k divided by 10k for 45 separate events for pros.

Now you work on grass roots initiatives.

The solution is simple, getting the people together isn't but someone has to be willing to do it and they need to do so for minimal salary and for the love of the game.

 

[cueman]

I have my own suspicions of how things were before the BCA became a Trade Organization but I would like someone several of you in fact to let me in on the atmosphere of what it was like back then.

About when did this occur? I've seem some posts about it don't really remember all of the details. I suspect there was a reason that this happened so I'm digging. I think this could be revealing.

As far as I know the true original Billiard Congress of America started out as a Trade Organization. It was later that they went off into things like tours, merchandise and leagues. I used to have to pay $500 per year to be a member just to be allowed to purchase booth space at their trade shows. Then the booth cost was on top that. The original BCA deserves credit for their Rule books, Hall of Fame and running what was at one time THE BILLIARDS SHOW.

I am not involved in their leagues or any other aspect and have nothing bad to say about the trade oraganization or the BCA leagues. But at one time to really be successful on the national or world stage in the Billiard products business, you needed to be at the BCA trade show. But with internet that face to face meeting with customers has become less neccessary, so that is why I think the show has declined in recent years. The last one I set up at was 2001 and I set up at 11 in a row no matter where they moved it to.

If the orginal poster thinks the BCA was originally a league that became a Trade Organization, it was really the other way around. If the BCA league is now becoming a trade organization it is just returing to it's roots.

 

[Island Drive]

I think that I heard that the APA complained that by the BCA running a league it
was sort of a conflict of interest, and that is when the BCA sold the league. That's
to the best of my recollection what happened.

Rene Pellman was ON the BCA board of directors awhile back....

 

[Roger Long]

Roger,
I agree that is complex. I find things that are usually complex in the end aren't.

Simple:

We need a respected organization to receive monies from players that are willing to be promoters of the sport. These monies could be used to save pro pool to some extent.
45000 members of this site x $10= $450k divided by 10k for 45 separate events for pros.

Now you work on grass roots initiatives.

The solution is simple, getting the people together isn't but someone has to be willing to do it and they need to do so for minimal salary and for the love of the game.

Robin,

It's still much more complicated than collecting $450K from amateur player members and then just turning that $450K over to pro players in the form of added monies for tournaments. I don't think those player members would like that very much. Also, a "$10K tournament" costs much more than $10K to run. Where would that extra money come from? You would have to have large revenues from trade members to pay for that. And if the trade members went for the idea, how would they benefit in return? They couldn't, and they know it. They've been down that road before, and I don't think they want to go back.

I think you and I are seeing the problem two different ways. You seem to see the problem as us needing an organization that would revive pro pool. I see the problem as us needing an organization that would fairly represent ALL of its members.

Roger

 

[itsfroze]

Don't have a clue who that is,or how it relates to what I posted, but thanks I guess?



Quote:
Originally Posted by itsfroze View Post

I think that I heard that the APA complained that by the BCA running a league it
was sort of a conflict of interest, and that is when the BCA sold the league. That's
to the best of my recollection what happened.


Originally posted by Island Drive

Rene Pellman was ON the BCA board of directors awhile back....


Care to elaborate? Never heard of this person.

 

[1ab]

In the recorded historical collection of World Championship matches, assembled on the website of Charles Ursitti, it's quite apparent sanctioning bodies began at the behest of a trade organization, namely : J.M. Brunswick and Balke Co. It's obvious, attention brought to the sport in this manner was instrumental to popularity and growth in sales. The first attempt at separation from corporate interest was in 37 when “The Professional Pocket Billiards Players Association of America” made its debut. Seeing the creation of the “National Billiard Association of America” shortly thereafter, I suspicion corporate interest with obvious motives regained control. IMHO the attempts at building professional sports in any arena is so daunting it will take a collective effort accepting the fact that trade organizations, having common interest, are in the best position for overall success.

 

[336Robin]

Thanks

As far as I know the true original Billiard Congress of America started out as a Trade Organization. It was later that they went off into things like tours, merchandise and leagues. I used to have to pay $500 per year to be a member just to be allowed to purchase booth space at their trade shows. Then the booth cost was on top that. The original BCA deserves credit for their Rule books, Hall of Fame and running what was at one time THE BILLIARDS SHOW.

I am not involved in their leagues or any other aspect and have nothing bad to say about the trade oraganization or the BCA leagues. But at one time to really be successful on the national or world stage in the Billiard products business, you needed to be at the BCA trade show. But with internet that face to face meeting with customers has become less neccessary, so that is why I think the show has declined in recent years. The last one I set up at was 2001 and I set up at 11 in a row no matter where they moved it to.

If the orginal poster thinks the BCA was originally a league that became a Trade Organization, it was really the other way around. If the BCA league is now becoming a trade organization it is just returing to it's roots.

Chris,
Thanks for history lesson, very informative and somewhat sad it seems that electronics has been at the helm of a demise in the sport at a lot of levels. I guess I would like to think that a organization or player movement could contribute to the rebirth of the game. I already know that getting pool players to do anything is like herding cats so you mention spending some money and they all start meowing and running around to see what the other is doing first.

I know the sport will change and it will change slow and if it doesn't develop some grassroots the foundation we have if any will disappear. I see pool going to the bar box and the only real hope I have is that there might be a way to get people to put in bar boxes with quarter plays. Cheap entertainment attracts teenagers.

 

[Cornerman]

I have my own suspicions of how things were before the BCA became a Trade Organization

I think you're a bit confused. The BCA was a Trade Organization first. They started as a trade association in 1948 (formerly known as NBAA and BAA prior to that).

There was some kind of relationship with the BBIA (Billiard and Bowling), but that doesn't seem to have made it into Wikipedia. Maybe I dreamt it.

But, anyway that's what the BCA was to begin with: a Trade Organization that had thousands of members (individuals as well as billiard supply folks). Half a century or more ago, it meant something… maybe. The fact that at one point in their history they had an amateur league that was ultimately sold away to Mark Griffin is probably what confuses most people as far as the history of their organization goes.