Beginner Needs Advice Again
- Thread starter Mike the Beginner
- Start date
OP here--thanks for all suggestions! For some reason I had assumed I had to start by shooting the 2 straight in the corner, which leads (considering my beginner's speed control "issues" :wink
to problems. It hadn't occurred to me that I could just as easily start the CB out in the middle of the table near the 7.
I agree that in a game I might have other balls to contend with, however, what I'm up to here is this. Six or seven times a day I get up from the computer where I work, go downstairs, throw 15 balls out on the table, and run through them, then go back upstairs and get back to work. What I've found is that I usually shoot 11 or 12 or 13 balls in without a miss, then get out of position and bang the final 4 or 3 or 2 balls around the table. Rarely do I sink all 15 balls without a miss. So Jerry suggested this exercise to help.
I will practice these suggestions tonight and get back to you with a report.
Mike in WI
to problems. It hadn't occurred to me that I could just as easily start the CB out in the middle of the table near the 7.I agree that in a game I might have other balls to contend with, however, what I'm up to here is this. Six or seven times a day I get up from the computer where I work, go downstairs, throw 15 balls out on the table, and run through them, then go back upstairs and get back to work. What I've found is that I usually shoot 11 or 12 or 13 balls in without a miss, then get out of position and bang the final 4 or 3 or 2 balls around the table. Rarely do I sink all 15 balls without a miss. So Jerry suggested this exercise to help.
I will practice these suggestions tonight and get back to you with a report.
Mike in WI
I like this pattern. Its hard for myself to judge the draw on bad tables. I'd rather the ball have natural forward momentum for most shots If I can help it. Shooting it with this pattern, I can over hit and still be in position to shoot the 7. Additionally, shooting with draw tends to hide the pocket from view unless you're shooting directly behind it. Yes there's traffic to move through, but you'll be close enough to shoot the 7 in any pocket other than maybe the one the 9ball is on. If I over draw the cue, It will pull me out past the proper angles to shot the 7.
OP here--thanks for all suggestions! For some reason I had assumed I had to start by shooting the 2 straight in the corner, which leads (considering my beginner's speed control "issues" :wink
I agree that in a game I might have other balls to contend with, however, what I'm up to here is this. Six or seven times a day I get up from the computer where I work, go downstairs, throw 15 balls out on the table, and run through them, then go back upstairs and get back to work. What I've found is that I usually shoot 11 or 12 or 13 balls in without a miss, then get out of position and bang the final 4 or 3 or 2 balls around the table. Rarely do I sink all 15 balls without a miss. So Jerry suggested this exercise to help.
I will practice these suggestions tonight and get back to you with a report.
Mike in WI
when you shoot the 10/11/12 balls in are you playing and getting 3 ball ahead position patterns
or
shooting a ball in
looking around
oh theres a shot i can make
repeat.....if so i work on being able to run 3 ball in a row planning where you will shoot each ball before you start the 3 ball sequence
Jerry Briesath. He's great. I've taken three lessons now. He does answer questions for me by email and he calls once in a while to see how I'm doing, but I don't like to pester him. Well, too much.
He has a great series of DVDs here. Unfortunately he has a health issue with his right arm, so he doesn't perform the shots himself in the DVD (he can still shoot, just not with textbook form), so Mark Wilson performs the shots in the DVD set.
Jerry owned two pool halls in Madison and is retired now, but is still teaching lessons. He's a naturally gifted teacher in my opinion. Think of the best two or three teachers you had in school in any subject you loved and he's that guy, only he's devoted himself to teaching pool for more than 50 years. I really cannot recommend him highly enough. For a beginner like me the lessons have been valuable beyond telling. (For starters my stroke was all wrong and I was busy grooving it anyway.)
The incredible thing about Jerry is that he can watch you and he knows exactly what you're doing wrong, and he can put his finger right on it. The effect is sort of like...well, magic. I have a list of what I call "Jerry's magic tricks" and when things start to go wrong for me I just go back to them.
I guess you can tell I'm a fan.
Mike in WI
Sort of a middle ground. What I mostly find myself doing is trying to play position on the next ball, plus position on another ball if I miss the position I'm aiming for. (Is there a name for that?) So it's sort of like two-way shots on position. (Plus I try to stay off the end rails. Rail shots in general are a weakness for me so getting stuck to the end rail is usually bad news.)
Sometimes I will see four balls in advance if they are laying out pretty, and sometimes I will just not know what the CB is going to do and so I kinda have to hit it and just watch where it goes. But I just took up the game in April so trying to think three balls ahead is usually, um, over-optimistic.
If I don't know how to shoot a shot, or if the CB does something radically different than I expect it to do (which does happen a fair bit), then I do it again. Jerry's idea for me is that I should be looking for those shots so I can learn from them. So I often "interrupt" the process of clearing all the balls to concentrate on one shot for a while, until I work out how to get the CB to do what I want it to do. Or at least learn what it does.
Mike
This is an interesting approach, I'm going to try this. Generally I don't have the hang of coming out past a ball to shoot it in the other way. I do see it a lot when I watch matches on YouTube but I haven't quite got the knack of envisioning it on the table myself.
Mike (OP)
Sometimes I come between the 2 and the 7. You can play safe between the 10 and 9 if that happens. Just wanted to throw that in there too, but I know the idea of the drill was to run it out. I'm just saying in game situation you plan, but sometimes the table works against you and you dont get the proper position.
skratch i like this
i thought it might be alittle too tough for the op (beginner) to figure how not to run into the 10 or 7
with my pattern he just had to get the cue ball to the side rail (over there somewhere) and have a shot
another positive of your pattern is the concept of being able to play shape to the center of the table (like my first pattern)
thats always a good option to consider imho
you are being taught by one of the best in the business
best money you can spend to speed p the progress of your game
you are very lucky
good luck with your game
I love these threads, it shows how even the simple situations have a lot of thought that need to go into them.
And there are many options and the difference between them might only be a few percentage points.
Meaning, option A might work 95 out of 100 and option B might work 98 out of 100.
It's fun trying to figure out which is which.
Ideas I don't like: Follow with 2 rails (as in the other pool.bz diagram).
Generally, natural follow routes are good. But sorry, this is too cute.
You're trying to send the cue ball through this little 1 foot gap between 2 balls.
You're hitting hard enough to travel about 10 feet, and you have to judge the angle
off the rails perfectly to avoid bumping either of those balls.
Too much can go wrong, plus speed control is not that simple with such a forceful shot.
Stunning straight across to play 7 in the side: Not terrible, but the natural stun line guarantees you end up
'below' the 7. So then when you play it in the side, you must go up to the head rail and back down
to get straight enough on the 9 ball. There's also not much space between the rail and 7.
You can easily end up too thin on the side or stuck to the rail.
Ideas I do like:
1. Natural follow is good, so why not a position route that uses natural follow and zero rails?
That takes 100% of the guessing out of it. All you need is speed control. And this line happens to have
the largest margin for error in speed control, out of any of the options mentioned in the thread.
You can't think of shooting into the further pocket as something risky or scary, not with ball in hand.
You should make it at least... if not 100%, then 98% of the time. If you can't imagine a pro doing this,
I saw Ralf do a very similar shot, here's a link to the diagram.
2. I think most players would go off the rail like so. You use low, or left, or both, and your ability
to comfortably control this really depends on your experience and may even change depending
on your cue, the rail and cloth condition, how much you're stretching, etc.
Sometimes I use a ...concept I guess? That I call 'the maximum'...
As in, where would I need to place the cue ball if I wanted to use MAX sidespin,
or max draw+sidespin, to bounce off the rail and spin to a certain spot on the table?
I don't think the diagram shows my maximum but I just wanted to mention the idea.
The reason I consider it useful is... it eliminates one of the ways you can screw up.
On a typical shot where you spin off the rail, you have at least 4 things that can go wrong.
- spin too much off the rail
- spin too little off the rail
- too much speed
- too little speed.
By leaving a thin cut that requires maximum spin, you eliminate 'spin too much' as a possibility.
It's difficult or impossible to spin more than your usual 'maximum'.
So now there are only 3 things that can go wrong.
And realistically, spin too little isn't likely either. You're spinning as much as you can.
So the path of a maximum sidespin shot is pretty predictable.
The downside is that hitting with tons of soft spin can make anything but a hanger missable.
3. If you're truly scared of missing the longer shot, you can shoot into the near pocket and draw instead.
But I don't like this because the angle of the draw is tougher to predict than the angle from a follow shot,
and the speed control for draw is always harder. In fact as a rule of thumb I tell players they probably
shouldn't draw with ball-in-hand unless they truly can't see another realistic option.
The only thing I like about this is that with no rail, you take out some guesswork.
The condition of the rails is not a factor.
And there are many options and the difference between them might only be a few percentage points.
Meaning, option A might work 95 out of 100 and option B might work 98 out of 100.
It's fun trying to figure out which is which.
Ideas I don't like: Follow with 2 rails (as in the other pool.bz diagram).
Generally, natural follow routes are good. But sorry, this is too cute.
You're trying to send the cue ball through this little 1 foot gap between 2 balls.
You're hitting hard enough to travel about 10 feet, and you have to judge the angle
off the rails perfectly to avoid bumping either of those balls.
Too much can go wrong, plus speed control is not that simple with such a forceful shot.
Stunning straight across to play 7 in the side: Not terrible, but the natural stun line guarantees you end up
'below' the 7. So then when you play it in the side, you must go up to the head rail and back down
to get straight enough on the 9 ball. There's also not much space between the rail and 7.
You can easily end up too thin on the side or stuck to the rail.
Ideas I do like:
1. Natural follow is good, so why not a position route that uses natural follow and zero rails?
That takes 100% of the guessing out of it. All you need is speed control. And this line happens to have
the largest margin for error in speed control, out of any of the options mentioned in the thread.
You can't think of shooting into the further pocket as something risky or scary, not with ball in hand.
You should make it at least... if not 100%, then 98% of the time. If you can't imagine a pro doing this,
I saw Ralf do a very similar shot, here's a link to the diagram.
2. I think most players would go off the rail like so. You use low, or left, or both, and your ability
to comfortably control this really depends on your experience and may even change depending
on your cue, the rail and cloth condition, how much you're stretching, etc.
Sometimes I use a ...concept I guess? That I call 'the maximum'...
As in, where would I need to place the cue ball if I wanted to use MAX sidespin,
or max draw+sidespin, to bounce off the rail and spin to a certain spot on the table?
I don't think the diagram shows my maximum but I just wanted to mention the idea.
The reason I consider it useful is... it eliminates one of the ways you can screw up.
On a typical shot where you spin off the rail, you have at least 4 things that can go wrong.
- spin too much off the rail
- spin too little off the rail
- too much speed
- too little speed.
By leaving a thin cut that requires maximum spin, you eliminate 'spin too much' as a possibility.
It's difficult or impossible to spin more than your usual 'maximum'.
So now there are only 3 things that can go wrong.
And realistically, spin too little isn't likely either. You're spinning as much as you can.
So the path of a maximum sidespin shot is pretty predictable.
The downside is that hitting with tons of soft spin can make anything but a hanger missable.
3. If you're truly scared of missing the longer shot, you can shoot into the near pocket and draw instead.
But I don't like this because the angle of the draw is tougher to predict than the angle from a follow shot,
and the speed control for draw is always harder. In fact as a rule of thumb I tell players they probably
shouldn't draw with ball-in-hand unless they truly can't see another realistic option.
The only thing I like about this is that with no rail, you take out some guesswork.
The condition of the rails is not a factor.
Yeah, running into the 10 does happen, but the idea is running past the 7ball in the direction keeps it in the proper zone for the next shot. The draw shot pulls it across the zone. Too little or too hard, and you're out of the zone. If you happen to run into the 10, it kills the CB and leaves you with a shot to the side. Only from time to time have I ended up hooked behind the 10. I play alot of 3C so the angles are easier for me to see. IMO the draw shot is the proper one, but I play on some bad tables from time to time and misjudge the shot speed/angle. A bad rail keeps the ball from coming back properly, and flattens out the shot. You end up going into or below the 7.
Edit --> I kept saying the 6 was the first ball, did not even notice it was a 2 LOL. Figured the pattern was 7,9,10, so 6 must have been the one before.
I liked this way also, but I was playing it for the 7 in the side. You can almost be fully brain dead and have bad speed control, and you will have a pocket in almost any position you end up with for the 7. Stop way short, you can shoot it long way in the corner, got a bit short, you shoot it in the opposite corner, stop for the side, shoot in the side, go a bit long for that, shoot in the near corner, go all the way around, shoot in the other near corner. You may end up with longer shot on the 7, but at least 90% of the time you have a make-able shot with a good chance of position on the 9 without even needing to spin the cueball much.
Also, some people said to shoot with low left to go to middle of the table, I think that way is not good unless you line up the ball in hand for the shot with a sharper angle than you want for an easy shot. Low left with a small angle on the 6 will bring you further uptable and away form the 7. With a 25% or less angle I think just a bit of low will get you to the 7 for middle of the table.
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As a beginner, you need to practice all the options shown until you are comfortable with them. Later, you will learn that there are still more options that haven't been shown. You will find that the easiest one to do will be to shoot the 2 into the far corner, and just follow to center table. The second easiest will be to follow to the end rail and then to the opposite side rail for the 7 in the corner.
You should also note that any ball that comes into the end rail at close to a 45 degree angle (which is a line drawn from the side pocket to the opposite corner pocket) will tend to come back to the center of the table. With this shot, you have the most options for falling short or going long. Cue ball speed isn't as critical. You have five pockets you can end up with instead of just one.
After you get the follow shots down, then start to work on getting the draw shots down. The middle of the table is your best friend, learn how to get there from just about anywhere.
You should also note that any ball that comes into the end rail at close to a 45 degree angle (which is a line drawn from the side pocket to the opposite corner pocket) will tend to come back to the center of the table. With this shot, you have the most options for falling short or going long. Cue ball speed isn't as critical. You have five pockets you can end up with instead of just one.
After you get the follow shots down, then start to work on getting the draw shots down. The middle of the table is your best friend, learn how to get there from just about anywhere.
Very good advice. The sooner you start thinking 3 balls ahead on auto the sooner you will start to see much improvement. This is one tip that is not talked about on here or in a lot of books and DVD's and I don't know why. When Alex was asked on TAR if he thought 3 balls ahead, he said no. I don't think that was too cool for the players that don't know he was joking or it was an out and out lie that were watching. Johnnyt
I didn't really find a solid improvement in my game until I started structured practices. short, highly concentrated drills focusing on stroke mechanics and ball control. When I was just practicing by throwing out balls and trying to run them, i found that it made me focus on an end result, not the process. just my two cents. get your stroke down first, then the thinking part takes less effort
best of luck
best of luck
Route C here is the best option IMHO.
Similar explanation, difficult to run out on position, mostly because you move into the position area in a parallel direction instead of crossing over.
This point is very important in choosing position areas, when you move parallel into the position area you have more options and it's not easy to miss the speed of the shot required.
I would not choose going for the opposite side although we can get there "the right way" in terms of moving into the position area, only because it's a smaller one.
Second option is getting to the center of the table (draw or follow), this is the way sometimes when your mind gets "slow" during play, it's also a generally good option in straight pool (this is kind of a straight pool set up). You may still get out of line here by falling short, meaning you would go into the final ball afterwards.
Others may also choose using as less rails as possible, especially if the rail behaviour is not to be trusted on a given table, options are mentioned.
In the end, it will come down to how you feel at the moment when in competition "the optimum" way is some times subjective according to how you hit on that day, that will determine which option you will finally choose.
Sometimes we have to win also even when not playing our best, that's very important to remember too.
Good luck with your practice!
Petros
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This is the best answer by far.
Personally, with that layout, I would go bbb's route. Left is optional, depending on where I started - but definitely draw off the 2 to the center of the table enough that I'm cutting the 7 to my right to stay away from getting under the 9.
But, in a game situation, there could be blockers, so you will need to how to go 1, 2 and 3 rails to play the 7 in another of the 5 pockets.